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LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

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Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#441

Post by anigbrowl »

MikkoFinell wrote: post #217
StavrosK wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But the person most at fault here is the one who lied and called in SWAT in the first place. It completely mystifies me how people can think that people with guns were justified in fatally shooting someone with no guns . That kind of thing should just never happen, either subdue them or let them get away, why are you shooting them? What could they possibly have done, short of ran to the kitchen to get a knife and t…

It mystifies me why you believe anyone thinks the shooting was justified. Literally NO ONE has said that. Please try to engage with the actual debate instead of making up strawmen to attack.

There are people right here in this thread who think the shooting was justified because the guy at the house didn't follow instructions carefully enough and the police (supposedly) had to assume the worst.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#442

Post by gaius »

learc83 wrote: post #425
gaius wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Find what's different in America and fix it The average American spends several hours a week watching TV and movies where the rule-breaking shoot-first-and-ask-questions-later cop is the hero. Probably most people who join the police see themselves in that role. Here in the UK our cop shows are like Midsomer Murders. Most episodes don’t even feature a gun...

>Here in the UK our cop shows are like Midsomer Murders. Most episodes don’t even feature a gun... Midsomer Murders is a murder mystery show, not really a cop show. There are plenty of action oriented Brotish Cop shows. I love Midsomer Murders by the way.

Well, so is NCIS then, and they love guns and rule-breaking...

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#443

Post by MaxfordAndSons »

rdiddly wrote: post #351
Hasz wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a huge conflict in my mind. I am a firm believer is due process and equal protection under the law for all. What you are suggesting is far from it, and a far cry from the ideal. SWAT teams, as heavily armored as they are, are still police, serving under the motto of protect and serve. If armor and automatic weapons are necessary to fulfill that goal, so be it. But SWAT teams are fundamentally not an extrajudic…

Actually I agree, and I think most cops would agree with that too. One thing hindering that ideal is how police officers are trained to have a chickenshit mentality where no risk to an officer's safety is tolerated ever . In that philosophy the balance is tilted too far in favor of officer safety and away from public safety. Scour the news for any "hero" story. A hero never displays concern for his own safety, he act…

>One thing hindering that ideal is how police officers are trained to have a chickenshit mentality where no risk to an officer's safety is tolerated ever.

Absolutely. And in spite of this zero tolerance, "officer safety over everything" mentality, they continue to use the PR crutch of being in "constant danger" without ever acknowledging the extreme mitigation tactics they employ against that danger, regardless of if it's real or imagined.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#444

Post by Karunamon »

sodosopa wrote: post #433
WhatIsDukkha wrote: post #100

What bothers me about these situations is just the entire idea of "SWAT" as practiced. You are a cop with 5+ other cops. You all pull your guns. Someone comes to the door, groggy in the middle of the night. They may or may not understand you are police. They may or may not believe you are the police. They are definitely confused/frightened/angry by your presence. We now begin the dice rolling process. Since every pol…

It seems like a distraction to focus on the SWAT team instead of the gamer at this point. Gamer pulled the trigger as soon as the call was made.

As far as I’m concerned, they’re both equally liable. If this was a case of mistaken identity rather than a malicious call, we’d all be calling for the cop’s head even though it would have been the same error.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#445

Post by tomschlick »

rbetts wrote: post #177
tomschlick wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How? Are you going to send an officer to the door to ask someone if there is a murder going on? This was a bad shoot, but the tactics were sound. Don’t correctly they would have called him out of the house from a distance with lethal cover from multiple angles and then cleared the house.

If sound tactics get innocent people killed when nobody was under actual threat --- those are shitty tactics.

Tactically, what would you do different?

You cant send people up to the door, as you have to assume the person is telling the truth and has the means to shoot through the door at them. When someone has a gun, distance and cover are your friend.

You then get everyone you can out of the house so you can clear it and assist the victims. That is what any police force in the civilized world would do if they had what they thought was credible information about a murder / hostage situation.

Obviously pulling the trigger in this case was a mistake, but what do you do differently? Everyone is criticizing training in this thread but no one seems to have any real solutions.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#446

Post by dba7dba »

lowbloodsugar wrote: post #367
dba7dba wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Police should be prepared to die wearing the badge, with civilian casualty being an absolute last resort. I disagree. No one should be prepared to die while working a job, a job that one will have all his life.

Then you don't get to be a cop. Or a soldier.

A soldier is in direct danger of losing life/limb only upto 25 years old so. As you go up higher in rank, your exposure to danger goes down exponentially.

And that is usually when an active war is going on.

Even when an active war is on, those in charge have learned to limit the length of time a soldier spends in warzone to 1 year. Like US did in Vietnam war.

For cop in certain areas, they are exposed to loving life/limb any day. It may happen only once a year or just a few years. But still, I wouldn't say one can be a cop only if you are willing to lose own life.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#447

Post by brandonmenc »

rdiddly wrote: post #332
computerex wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea this answer is total and utter crap. We aren't asking law enforcement to be super human, we want them to be educated and competent. The fact that the U.S is both lacking in training and competence is a well established fact. Law enforcement in the United States has proven itself to lack training and discipline by firing on innocent unarmed citizens many many times. I don't believe any other country in the world h…

Actual solution or alternative: You and tons more people like you, should apply for jobs in law enforcement, work your way up into leadership, and change policy.

How about as a taxpayer who funds the police, I have a say in how they operate. No need to become a cop.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#448

Post by FireBeyond »

Xylakant wrote: post #269
FireBeyond wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, most of these calls are designed to provoke no-knock forcible entry... "hostages actively being threatened", "domestic violence in progress", etc.

Neither of these situations should trigger no-knock forced entry. The response to most situations should be careful assessment of the situation at hand, the involved actors and the dynamic of the situation, especially since swatting has come up. Police truly need to expect that an anonymous tipster is trying to goad them into action. There’s few situations that should probably trigger an immediate forceful response,…

I utterly agree, as I think my other posts should say. But regardless of the should, for better or worse, we are in the "they likely -will- provoke...".

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#449

Post by trhway »

j9461701 wrote: post #265
CydeWeys wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shotgun slugs are a lot less penetrative than .50 BMG though; they're proportionally heavier and travel slower. 12 gauge is .73 inches. You need significantly more thickness of armor just to stop the .50 BMG at all, by which point you've added so much more mass that you've gone much of the towards solving the higher impulse as well.

>Shotgun slugs are a lot less penetrative than .50 BMG though; they're proportionally heavier and travel slower. What does the word "proportionally" mean in this sentence? Because factually, the slug is about half the weight of the BMG round. >You need significantly more thickness of armor just to stop the .50 BMG at all, by which point you've added so much more mass that you've gone much of the towards solving the h…

>You're looking at elephant-stomping-on-you levels of force, and you're trying to say it'll be mitigated somewhat because you have 5 pounds of steel on your chest rather than 2 pounds. You will be a person salsa even if you strapped a kitchen stove to yourself.

the momentum conservation means that the 5 pound of steel would be moving with the speed of 18m/s after full momentum transfer from the 45g bullet hitting it at 900m/s. 5lb at 18m/s - is like somebody would hit you with a frying pan. While painful and dangerous if say into the head, it is still much less so than getting the bullet directly. Even better result would be with a 25 lb steel plate - just 3.6m/s - like somebody would shove an office/kitchen table at you.

Elephant leg say weights 250kg - that would mean that if you have an elephant leg as an armor in front of you, after being hit by a 0.50 bullet with full momentum transfer the leg will be moving at the speed of 0.18m/s - you can just slowly step away from it.

>You don't seem to be understanding the magnitude of the forces involved.

please enlighten us and correct my calculations above.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#450

Post by srj »

joeax wrote: post #235
sverige wrote: post #73

Most of the comments have to do with the police interaction. My question is, what can be done to discourage swatting? My reflex reaction is to give everyone involved long prison sentences, and some aggressive prosecution of other incidents, so that people tempted to engage in swatting are discouraged by some realistic chance of doing real prison time for doing something so reckless and stupid. The guy who made the ca…

Normally I'd agree but the US already has the largest prison population in the world. By far. We are obsessed with long and lengthy prison sentences even for the most minuscule non-victim offenses i.e. 20 years for pot possession (meanwhile armed robbers get 3-5 years). Terms like "mandatory minimum" and "zero tolerance" get thrown around by politicians like it's candy to get themselves elected, with little to no reg…

What restitution can there be in this case? Nothing can compensate this person for the loss of their life, or the two children who will grow up without a father. The guy who made the false report had done so previously with a bomb threat, and showed no remorse. How can this person ever be trusted to rejoin society? How can the victims be restored by the justice system? Neither is realistic. Short of a death penalty, the only outcome is to put the guy in jail for a long time.
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