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Your Mother’s Maiden Name Is Not a Secret

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Re: Your Mother’s Maiden Name Is Not a Secret

#241

Post by u801e »

sethammons wrote: post #239
u801e wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm willing to bet you could have a video with transcript and pictures of the user's exact home set up and many people still couldn't figure it out. I think you're giving most people less credit than they deserve in terms of figuring things out. Yes, there are people who are technically illiterate, but they probably still conduct most of their business in a manner similar to the pre-commercial internet days. That i…

:) "most" vs "many." I don't think most users would have a terrible time. I think most users would not bother with setting up anything fancy, but could if they had ok instructions. But I think there are many who would absolutely flounder. As a technical person, I would like more security for sure. "Security" questions should be gone. Everything important should be 2FA or have a key fob. I think just about everyone wh…

The key fob (or equivalent application on one's phone) is a better option compared to email/SMS based 2FA since the latter is not secure [1] [2]). The latter is still a lot like the half-baked security measures I mentioned in my earlier post.

I still think having certificate/private key imported into my browser as a one-time (or periodic) task more convenient compared to having to use a key fob or soft token from a phone app everytime I have to log in.

[1] https://techcrunch.com/2016/07/25/nist-declares-the-age-of-s...

[2] It's a general problem of people using the same password for one's email account or cell phone service account and their online bank account

Re: Your Mother’s Maiden Name Is Not a Secret

#242

Post by hocuspocus »

Amezarak wrote: post #237
hocuspocus wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I imagine it can exist among the homeless, I have never heard of anyone without a bank account in Europe. The EU even introduced a right to a basic bank account.[1] If you have an employer, I don't see how you could not have a bank account. Even retired/unemployed, you will need one to receive any kind of pension, benefits or social welfare. I know that old habits die hard, and France is a good example (cheques…

In the US, if you don't have a bank account, the government will just send you a debit card that they will load a balance on for your benefits/welfare. For example, here's a description of the Social Security debit card program. https://www.ssa.gov/pubs/EN-05-10073.pdf Most of these people do have access to a bank account - most of them are free - if they wanted one, but they choose not to get one for various reasons…

> I think in terms of American politics, there would be some resistance in requiring people to have a bank account.

I think it's fair from the government (and employers) to stick to the most effective way to deliver payments, and not enable third party check-cashing business (which doesn't exist here anyway) and/or companies issuing high-fees prepaid cards.

Since we are specifically talking about checks, I'm not sure you were ever able to cash one out without having your own bank account anyway. And even assuming the scenario where you want to walk in the issuing bank, what if they have zero or limited physical presence?

Re: Your Mother’s Maiden Name Is Not a Secret

#243

Post by Amezarak »

pgeorgi wrote: post #228
Amezarak wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, most Americans aren't doing international wire transfers. I've never had an issue with my American credit union. I draft loans directly out of my account and I can send money to anyone for free (instantly to people with the same bank.) For everything else, I use my credit card for the fraud protection and rewards points.

> I use my credit card for the fraud protection This is another one of those US quirks. The only time I had to deal with banking fraud was when my wife's credit card was stolen. CCs are pretty low on the trust scale here in Germany, they mostly exist to simplify transactions with US-oriented companies.

Fraud protection (at least as I was thinking of it) encompasses a lot more than banking fraud.

A couple of years ago, a vendor charged me $500 instead of the $50 they had claimed a service would cost. When I complained to them, they called me a liar and refused to do anything.

I disputed the transaction with my credit card company. The money never even had to be refunded to me because it never came out of my account.

This is a rare occurrence, but having an intermediary preventing $450 that I don't owe being directly debited out of my account is vastly superior to the alternative of complaining to my bank after the actual money is gone.

Re: Your Mother’s Maiden Name Is Not a Secret

#244

Post by rhino369 »

mitchty wrote: post #110
Latty wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I cannot think of a single good reason to impose this. Good? Definitely not, but my money is on CHAR(8) and a lack of understanding.

Dollar to a donut, there is or was a mainframe involved in authentication that has an 8 character password. I even bet the company that sold it was IBM. I remember finding out at one job that the "reason" for the 8 character password requirement for one of our logins, was "you can type as much as you want, but eventually we just take the first 8 characters and use that to log you into the mainframe as thats all it ac…

I’ve seen limitations that even go back to paper records. I worked at a medium sized company where at least 20% of database variables were limited by the number of characters on a paper card system developed in the 50s.

Re: Your Mother’s Maiden Name Is Not a Secret

#245

Post by Amezarak »

hocuspocus wrote: post #242
Amezarak wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US, if you don't have a bank account, the government will just send you a debit card that they will load a balance on for your benefits/welfare. For example, here's a description of the Social Security debit card program. https://www.ssa.gov/pubs/EN-05-10073.pdf Most of these people do have access to a bank account - most of them are free - if they wanted one, but they choose not to get one for various reasons…

> I think in terms of American politics, there would be some resistance in requiring people to have a bank account. I think it's fair from the government (and employers) to stick to the most effective way to deliver payments, and not enable third party check-cashing business (which doesn't exist here anyway) and/or companies issuing high-fees prepaid cards. Since we are specifically talking about checks, I'm not sure…

> companies issuing high-fees prepaid cards.

These cards are essentially issued by the government. There are no fees associated with purchases, only fees associated with multiple cash withdrawals in a month (which some banks also have) and with bank transfers.

There's really not much downside to that alternative - it's basically the government creating a limited-use bank account for you and tying it to a card.

> I'm not sure you were ever able to cash one out without having your own bank account anyway.

Why would that be? The only reason other banks want you to have an account is because they can't know whether it's a good check, i.e., whether or not the payer actually has the funds to pay the check, so they need a way of clawing back the money (by drafting your account) if it's bad.

> And even assuming the scenario where you want to walk in the issuing bank, what if they have zero or limited physical presence?

Well, until recently, they would be a pretty uncommon scenario.

I do generally believe that being "unbanked" is a poor decision, but at the same time, I'm a little uneasy at the idea that we should all be effectively forced into participating in the banking system, which, while it is beneficial in many ways, also serves as a key way to redistribute wealth to the wealthy. I'm not a huge fan of check cashing businesses - which does include large companies like WalMart - but if people are really making the free and conscious choice to not have a bank account and they prefer to pay $5 to get a check cashed, well, I would have a problem with someone telling them they have to get a bank account to participate in society, if what they're doing works for them.

BTW - if you have some links on the cash transaction limits, I'd be interested in reading them. It seems kind of crazy that a country could tell its citizens they can't pay in cash above certain amounts.

Re: Your Mother’s Maiden Name Is Not a Secret

#246

Post by tscs37 »

Aardwolf wrote: post #4

Does anyone know the cause of the large and long standing difference in banking in US vs Europe? In europe: -for 15 or so years already, web banking has been with 2nd factor authentication (since its inception I assume). In previous decades we would get devices where you need to type numbers from its lcd screen into the webpage login. Today mobile auth apps are taking over. -I have never seen a bank have security que…

>I guess you go to the bank's office if you forget it?

Yup. An account reset requires a visit to the bank and you'll get the new password mailed to you via postal service and you'll be required (usually) to immediately pick a new password upon first login.

>and not called wiring, not sure what in english though

SEPA Credit Transfer. Beginning next year banks will also test and deploy an instant transfer variant of this.

>Today mobile auth apps are taking over.

Mobile apps are indeed a lot more popular these days but a second factor is still employed.

SMS 2FA is being phased out (atleast in germany) and current alternatively are either having a list of TAN codes, optical TAN generator or a proper Card reader on your PC.

I think this is in large part due to, atleast in germany, banks being liable for all damages if they can't prove their system is reasonably secure. This makes some parts of account management a PITA since you need to show up at their local branch office but tbh, it's much better than the US.

Re: Your Mother’s Maiden Name Is Not a Secret

#247

Post by tscs37 »

Amezarak wrote: post #243
pgeorgi wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I use my credit card for the fraud protection This is another one of those US quirks. The only time I had to deal with banking fraud was when my wife's credit card was stolen. CCs are pretty low on the trust scale here in Germany, they mostly exist to simplify transactions with US-oriented companies.

Fraud protection (at least as I was thinking of it) encompasses a lot more than banking fraud. A couple of years ago, a vendor charged me $500 instead of the $50 they had claimed a service would cost. When I complained to them, they called me a liar and refused to do anything. I disputed the transaction with my credit card company. The money never even had to be refunded to me because it never came out of my account.…

> When I complained to them, they called me a liar and refused to do anything.

Atleast in germany you have a multitude of options you can pull even without a lawyer getting involved. You can also file legal complaints easily and most fraudsters will drop the money at that point and apologize.

Added to that is that most online payment in germany works with a push system, which means you'll see the amount you'll transfer on your banks online form or whichever webservice you use (GIROdirect or SOFORT). If they charge more, don't pay.

SEPA Debit, which is a pull system has more fraud protection and vendors are very unlikely to ever do anything like fraud over Debit as the bank will go after them like some 80s slasher movie killer if they do. Plus you get the money back.

Re: Your Mother’s Maiden Name Is Not a Secret

#248

Post by tscs37 »

DrJokepu wrote: post #144
fh973 wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interestingly, car dealers in Germany usually require you to pay in cash. I think this is because getting ownership of a car (the keys and papers) has legal implications and so you need an atomic transaction.

They don’t have cashier’s checks or banker’s drafts in Germany?

Very very very rarely. I've never seen or heard of anyone using either personally and I'm not even sure where I would get a check book or cash in a check.

Germany is very cash. You pay taxi in cash, you pay the restaurant in cash and you pay the train in cash. Credit Cards exist but largely the EC system is prefered since it's not credit based and pulls from your bank account instead. And I only really fall back to EC when I run out of cash and I know I'm going to be at a place that has a card reader.

Re: Your Mother’s Maiden Name Is Not a Secret

#249

Post by Amezarak »

tscs37 wrote: post #247
Amezarak wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fraud protection (at least as I was thinking of it) encompasses a lot more than banking fraud. A couple of years ago, a vendor charged me $500 instead of the $50 they had claimed a service would cost. When I complained to them, they called me a liar and refused to do anything. I disputed the transaction with my credit card company. The money never even had to be refunded to me because it never came out of my account.…

> When I complained to them, they called me a liar and refused to do anything. Atleast in germany you have a multitude of options you can pull even without a lawyer getting involved. You can also file legal complaints easily and most fraudsters will drop the money at that point and apologize. Added to that is that most online payment in germany works with a push system, which means you'll see the amount you'll transf…

> Atleast in germany you have a multitude of options you can pull even without a lawyer getting involved. You can also file legal complaints easily and most fraudsters will drop the money at that point and apologize.

In this case, all I had to do was log into my credit card website, click "dispute transaction", explain what happened, and forget about it.

Moreover, I don't know what would have happened legally, as it is a reputable, well-established vendor in the local area, and it came down to my word versus theirs - I didn't have a receipt or anything.

> Plus you get the money back.

The money never even leaving my account is much preferable to getting it back.

The US debit system works in a similar way as you describe, but the credit system is still better for that reason.

Re: Your Mother’s Maiden Name Is Not a Secret

#250

Post by lowbloodsugar »

Aardwolf wrote: post #4

Does anyone know the cause of the large and long standing difference in banking in US vs Europe? In europe: -for 15 or so years already, web banking has been with 2nd factor authentication (since its inception I assume). In previous decades we would get devices where you need to type numbers from its lcd screen into the webpage login. Today mobile auth apps are taking over. -I have never seen a bank have security que…

America is the best. Therefore if Europe does something different, then it must be worse.

Hah, no, US banking is absolutely in the dark ages. When I first came here they didn't have debit cards FFS. I had to carry a check book and write on it with a pen. They've only just got chip and pin!

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