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Your Mother’s Maiden Name Is Not a Secret

nytimes.com

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Re: Your Mother’s Maiden Name Is Not a Secret

#221

Post by mindslight »

closeparen wrote: post #118
mindslight wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perversely, initiating an ACH credit is apparently seen as more risky than receiving an ACH debit. I believe this is ultimately due to the originator being responsible for any transaction that turns out to be fraudulent. In general I think the US is comfortable to limp along putting band-aids on broken systems, because the failings are seen as being intrinsic to the "natural state" of things (see also: common law and…

No one is eating the risk, it's simply priced in as a 2-3% sales tax paid to the credit card network ecosystem.

I was referring to ACH, not credit cards.

Also, something you said in a related comment:

> tiny proportion of the most technologically sophisticated banks provide the ability to transfer money to any arbitrary person

My experience is that every US bank has an "external account" transfer feature (for use with your other accounts) that can initiate ACH credits or debits, as well as a "Bill Pay" that will do ACH credits to any routing/account number. But (as I alluded to) banks limit the dollar amount of transactions initiated through them, as they are responsible for cleaning up any mess due to "fraud".

Re: Your Mother’s Maiden Name Is Not a Secret

#222

Post by Larrikin »

djsumdog wrote: post #145
thekingshorses wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ACH(EFTS in EU) ... is primarily a digital check. Well not exactly. I have set up ACH transfer between my dad and my account, but a couple of banks didn't let me. They are like both account holder should be the same. Bank told me that the only option I have is to wire the money. On the other hand, I pay my employees through ACH (ADP take cares of it).

Most other countries allow direct person-to-person transfers with just a name and account number. In Australia you can put in someone's details and payment for something and it will be there the next morning, with no fees, directly through the government interbank system. In the US if you want a fee-free transfer, you need to use your bank's app and take a photo of someone's check. And no, Paypal/Vinmo are not good a…

This is a little outdated. Most banks finally got Zelle setup this year. It hasn't fully caught on but you can get free transfers between nearly all big banks and a lot of small banks simply by setting it up and knowing the persons email or phone number. I've been trying to get my friends to move off Venmo, but the option to do it is usually buried inside of the banking apps so it isn't as convenient.

Re: Your Mother’s Maiden Name Is Not a Secret

#223

Post by TheCoelacanth »

_wp3r wrote: post #46
Aardwolf wrote: post #4

Does anyone know the cause of the large and long standing difference in banking in US vs Europe? In europe: -for 15 or so years already, web banking has been with 2nd factor authentication (since its inception I assume). In previous decades we would get devices where you need to type numbers from its lcd screen into the webpage login. Today mobile auth apps are taking over. -I have never seen a bank have security que…

A wire transfer(IBAN/BIC transfer) is different from an ACH transfer. ACH(EFTS in EU) in the US is generally free, but has a delay for clearing and has some mechanisms for reversal. This is primarily a digital check, and can be initiated by the receiver in that way. A wire transfer is nearly immediate by comparison and offers almost no option for reversal. This option does usually have a fee and is generally reserved…

ACH works on a pull basis rather than a push basis. Instead of telling the bank "send $100 to account XXXXXXXXXX at bank YYYYYYYYY" you tell the bank "give me $100 from account XXXXXXXXXX at bank YYYYYYYYY". That makes it okay for paying a large business that is easy to track down if they take too much, but it makes it unsuitable for paying a normal person because they could just empty out your bank account and then disappear.

Re: Your Mother’s Maiden Name Is Not a Secret

#224

Post by sethammons »

u801e wrote: post #105
motherdearest wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can just imagine my mother getting flustered after reading the words "certificate signing (sic?) Request" and stop reading at "client certificate". I can think of very elaborate security measures. The trick is to make them sound easy and relatable to a ranch hand and 1960s housewife. These people smart but they don't have the same life experiences

It may sound difficult at first, but with plenty of help (step-by-step tutorials, etc.) provided by the bank, then it shouldn't be too hard to implement. It could be started as a trial for a certain subset of customers and then rolled out to larger and larger groups as time goes on. Banks could provide an incentive by stating that using this is much more secure than just using a password, and that it's also largely a…

In school, did you ever do the "give instructions to make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich" activity? I'm guessing not.

I'm willing to bet you could have a video with transcript and pictures of the user's exact home set up and many people still couldn't figure it out. You are dealing with people who still don't understand why you don't have to double click links since they have to double click apps and don't know the difference between Google, the Internet, and Internet Explorer.

People are often stuck with modes of thought and operation from when they were younger, and for many, that was pre-computer. At work, we got a hand written letter asking for support setting up their account because they were having trouble with their email that their daughter set up (despite ample support options on the site).

Re: Your Mother’s Maiden Name Is Not a Secret

#225

Post by Amezarak »

hocuspocus wrote: post #216
Amezarak wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don't issue checkbooks at all, or you just don't get a bunch of free ones when you sign up? Most American banks that I know of don't give you any either, anymore, just a debit card, but you can get them if you want them.

Modern banks really don't. In Germany you truly have no use for cheques anymore. SEPA works both ways (wire transfers and direct debit from your account are free for you and very cheap for business accounts). While for instance in France, Orange launched their own bank recently, they're 100% mobile, yet you can request a checkbook (for free, afaik they cannot legally charge you).

It's free to send money to other bank accounts in the US, too, and in some cases instantaneous, in no case I know of longer than a couple days.

The problem isn't that the infrastructure isn't there - it is. Older people and a few stodgy institutions rely on checks, but that's not because they have to.

In Germany, what do people without bank accounts do? In the US, there's a lot of these people, but you (or their employer) can still give them a check and they can cash it at a check-cashing business (ugh) or the bank it was issued from.

Re: Your Mother’s Maiden Name Is Not a Secret

#226

Post by pluma »

ThomPete wrote: post #187
Aardwolf wrote: post #4

Does anyone know the cause of the large and long standing difference in banking in US vs Europe? In europe: -for 15 or so years already, web banking has been with 2nd factor authentication (since its inception I assume). In previous decades we would get devices where you need to type numbers from its lcd screen into the webpage login. Today mobile auth apps are taking over. -I have never seen a bank have security que…

There is no such thing as an international wiretransfer. Instead what you have is a set of agreements between gateway banks in each country allowing for the money to be made available from one country to another. Other than that it's mainly consumer protection and the EU attempts to standarize everyhting vs. US less restrictive and more, leave it to the market to establish standards. For historical context the Europe…

But it seems the standards forced down by the EU resulted in a faster, more efficient system?

As a private individual or person doing business in the EU I don't have to care about the different gateways in various EU countries or the difference between ACH and wire. I just make a transfer via online banking or authorize a SEPA Direct Debit withdrawal by ticking a checkbox in an online shop. There's zero friction.

Whether the transaction is completed instantly or within a business day usually doesn't matter much. There's no faffing about with paper cheques (because seriously what century is this) and I don't have to talk to any humans to do it. Rent and utilities are deducted from my bank account every month until I revoke the authorisation.

Watching American sitcoms with mom or dad poring over a stack of bills and writing cheques seems like a flashback to the 1950s.

Re: Your Mother’s Maiden Name Is Not a Secret

#227

Post by [deleted] »

BinaryIdiot wrote: post #158
johnnyb9 wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- We don't use 2FA authentication, I guess because there are more cost effective ways of verifying our identity (probably not going to last much longer with all the breaches) - ACH in the USA is free and fast (one business day)... and that's the main way of receiving salary, paying bills, etc. Is Europe really any better in this regard? - No one uses paper checks here either...

> No one uses paper checks here either... Source on that one? I've found that people outside of the tech bubble use a paper check at the very least once a year and most likely once a month. I have seen plenty of apartments, renters, even a mortgage company just a few years ago that required payment still in paper checks in the USA. I'm going to assume your suggestion is anecdotal. It is certainly in decline but it's…

[deleted]

Re: Your Mother’s Maiden Name Is Not a Secret

#228

Post by pgeorgi »

Amezarak wrote: post #204
henrikschroder wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Inter-bank money transfers in US are handled by a system that needs multiple "business days" I wired some money from my US bank account to my Swedish bank account. The US bank obviously operates on a batch process basis, because around 6AM EST I got an email from my US bank saying that they've sent the money, and I should expect it within three days in my destination account. It was already available in my Swedish…

Well, most Americans aren't doing international wire transfers. I've never had an issue with my American credit union. I draft loans directly out of my account and I can send money to anyone for free (instantly to people with the same bank.) For everything else, I use my credit card for the fraud protection and rewards points.

> I use my credit card for the fraud protection

This is another one of those US quirks. The only time I had to deal with banking fraud was when my wife's credit card was stolen. CCs are pretty low on the trust scale here in Germany, they mostly exist to simplify transactions with US-oriented companies.

Re: Your Mother’s Maiden Name Is Not a Secret

#229

Post by pgeorgi »

owenversteeg wrote: post #106
the8472 wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since November EU regulation mandates that SEPA transfers should finish within 10 seconds[0]. In practice we're not quite there yet since some smaller regional banks have trouble moving from batch processing to streams, but their deadline extension ends june 2018. [0] https://www.europeanpaymentscouncil.eu/sites/default/files/K...

Huh, that's interesting. I remember transferring a few euros for shared pizza to a friend's account a few months back and it took a day. This was between two very large, modern Dutch banks.

>> Since November

> a few months back

:-)

And as the sibling post mentions, it's a new type of transaction. Regular money transfers have to clear on the next day.

Re: Your Mother’s Maiden Name Is Not a Secret

#230

Post by HoyaSaxa »

TheCoelacanth wrote: post #223
_wp3r wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A wire transfer(IBAN/BIC transfer) is different from an ACH transfer. ACH(EFTS in EU) in the US is generally free, but has a delay for clearing and has some mechanisms for reversal. This is primarily a digital check, and can be initiated by the receiver in that way. A wire transfer is nearly immediate by comparison and offers almost no option for reversal. This option does usually have a fee and is generally reserved…

ACH works on a pull basis rather than a push basis. Instead of telling the bank "send $100 to account XXXXXXXXXX at bank YYYYYYYYY" you tell the bank "give me $100 from account XXXXXXXXXX at bank YYYYYYYYY". That makes it okay for paying a large business that is easy to track down if they take too much, but it makes it unsuitable for paying a normal person because they could just empty out your bank account and then…

Just a heads up it actually works both ways. The originating depository financial institution (ODFI) can submit debits (pulls) or credits (pushes) which are then ultimately transmitted to the receiving depository financial institution (RDFI).

Often banks and credit unions will limit ACH origination to debits (pulls) in digital banking applications for risk and business reasons.

You are right that ACH (and most payment schemes in the US) have substantial deficiencies in terms of security, but that is counteracted with a strong justice system and consumer laws. You shouldn't really fear about someone emptying your bank account (unless you are a business) because Regulation E mandates that banks and credit unions make you whole for any fraudulent transaction reported within 60 days of the statement that includes the relevant transaction(s).

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