Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

kansas.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

301–310 of 864 posts

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#301

Post by bww »

joe_the_user wrote: post #268
cortesoft wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We know what is different but we refuse to address it. I understand that many people feel the second amendment is very important, but we at least have to have the intellectual honesty to admit that shootings like this are a consequence of it. We might decide we are willing, as a society, to accept that risk, but we can’t pretend it isn’t there.

I don't see much of a plausible argument that lack of gun control makes American police more trigger happy. And I say that as someone with no particular stake in gun rights. America doesn't have that high a murder rate, it just has a high rate of killings by cops. Lack of training, poor training and overall problematic police-culture seem to be the main offenders.

Easy access to guns in this country means it’s plausible that anyone the police encounter may be armed. As a result all the police also have guns and are reasonably concerned about being shot themselves – especially in tense situations. That’s a pretty direct connection from more guns in the public to more heavily armed, twitchier police.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#302

Post by valuearb »

ivanhoe wrote: post #175
WhatIsDukkha wrote: post #100

What bothers me about these situations is just the entire idea of "SWAT" as practiced. You are a cop with 5+ other cops. You all pull your guns. Someone comes to the door, groggy in the middle of the night. They may or may not understand you are police. They may or may not believe you are the police. They are definitely confused/frightened/angry by your presence. We now begin the dice rolling process. Since every pol…

They have to approach the situation prepared for the worst case scenario. Problem is that they typically lack the proper training and the discipline required, and act too hastily. There's also a huge problem with the whole that macho, gun loving, power-tripping culture, it just makes things worse, wrong profile of people gets that kind of job.

Shouldn't they prepare for the most likely scenarios, i.e. it's a bogus call or misrepresented whats happening, or that the perp just wants to surrender?

How often do these calls turn out to be actually dangerous? One in a dozen? A hundred?

Should cops wearing body armor use sniper rifles to shoot someone on their porch several hundred feet away just on the off chance they might have a pistol in their waistband?

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#303

Post by turbohz »

jakelazaroff wrote: post #132
mmmBacon wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry but almost all the blame is on the person who pulls the trigger. Swatting is possible because of police militarization. Frankly while the idiot who made the call certainly shares some responsibility, our police policies of shoot first and ask questions later are the problem. When police are trained to respond to citizens, even violent ones, like enemies in war, we get the outcomes of police killings that we hav…

Police militarization makes this man more culpable, not less. He called the police with foreknowledge that doing so would provoke a militarized response likely to end in a death.

Fool me once...

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#304

Post by dukeflukem »

cortesoft wrote: post #232
varjag wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Somehow police in the rest of developed world are able to resist shooting a great deal of suspects on the spot. Find what's different in America and fix it.

We know what is different but we refuse to address it. I understand that many people feel the second amendment is very important, but we at least have to have the intellectual honesty to admit that shootings like this are a consequence of it. We might decide we are willing, as a society, to accept that risk, but we can’t pretend it isn’t there.

Replying to throwaway7312

America doesn't have much in common with those countries listed. They are much poorer countries where law and order isn't upheld as well as the US.

I think the key is not just gun ownership rates but WHO is owning the gun and WHY. The Iceland and Finland examples make me think cold countries with higher rural populations and hunting as a sport or necessity.

OTOH in USA perhaps more ordinary people buy guns for self defence purposes with the intent to shoot a person not an animal.

Edit: weird I can now see the reply button for that comment I didn't before. Apologies

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#305

Post by StavrosK »

MikkoFinell wrote: post #299
StavrosK wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the guy is definitely guilty of some degree of murder, because he knew what he was doing. However, I'm contrasting it with my country, where calling in such a situation would be very unlikely to get someone killed, because the police are much more reticent to shoot people. In such a case, the caller could be guilty of wasting resources, but not of murder. The only difference is the handling of each situation by…

How many gun-related homicides are there per year in your country?

1.5 per 100k (most of which are suicides), gun culture isn't big here.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#306

Post by valuearb »

freedomben wrote: post #185
ivanhoe wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They have to approach the situation prepared for the worst case scenario. Problem is that they typically lack the proper training and the discipline required, and act too hastily. There's also a huge problem with the whole that macho, gun loving, power-tripping culture, it just makes things worse, wrong profile of people gets that kind of job.

> Problem is that they typically lack the proper training and the discipline required, and act too hastily. What you are asking them to be is super human, indeed even better than a computer could in the same situation. No amount of "proper training" or "discipline" can prepare you to make perfect decisions based on imperfect data (your sensory perception, plus all the data that isn't present such as must be read from…

It's not asking them to be super-human. Its asking them not to shoot until they actually see a weapon.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#307

Post by blt »

debaserab2 wrote: post #148
falcolas wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At which point, if you're up against armed individuals, you've lost the element of surprise, and have created a hostage situation at best, and a shootout in a suburban neighborhood at worst. Or, someone walks out and defuses the police, then their compatriots wipe all the police out unopposed.

This mindset is exactly what's wrong with policing in America. Every single part of training seems to be designed for worst case scenarios. There's no room for common sense or judgment.

Because if you consider average case scenarios, logic will inevitably force you to make a choice: what percentage of cops should die during their career? The police chiefs decided the answer is zero. That leads to extreme aggressive tactics.

Too bad the owners of mines, oil rigs, logging operations, etc. don't share a similar concern for their employees' lives.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#308

Post by valuearb »

Xylakant wrote: post #269
FireBeyond wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, most of these calls are designed to provoke no-knock forcible entry... "hostages actively being threatened", "domestic violence in progress", etc.

Neither of these situations should trigger no-knock forced entry. The response to most situations should be careful assessment of the situation at hand, the involved actors and the dynamic of the situation, especially since swatting has come up. Police truly need to expect that an anonymous tipster is trying to goad them into action. There’s few situations that should probably trigger an immediate forceful response,…

Any cop who shoots an innocent person during a no-knock forced entry should be automatically charged with murder.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#309

Post by trophycase »

rbcgerard wrote: post #114
meri_dian wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SWAT is usually only involved when it's clear there is an immediate and present danger. So of course they are going to be ready with weapons drawn. Do you want them to just waltz into (probably) dangerous situations with their hands in their pockets whistling a tune? Edit: The amount of willful ignorance displayed on HN regarding law enforcement is staggering. It's sad to see how many people here view police as the b…

Simple question - what % of SWAT encounters should an INNOCENT person be able to survive?

I dunno? Maybe 99.9% or even 99.99%

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#310

Post by rdiddly »

WhatIsDukkha wrote: post #100

What bothers me about these situations is just the entire idea of "SWAT" as practiced. You are a cop with 5+ other cops. You all pull your guns. Someone comes to the door, groggy in the middle of the night. They may or may not understand you are police. They may or may not believe you are the police. They are definitely confused/frightened/angry by your presence. We now begin the dice rolling process. Since every pol…

Not to be too blunt, but that's why they call it law enforcement. What's causing all the cognitive dissonance is the fact that law enforcement was summoned inappropriately -- i.e. on a an innocent person in a situation where no laws were broken and no enforcement was needed.

If the drug-lord whose assassins raped and killed your sister is confused and groggy in the middle of the night and gets shot accidentally or even "accidentally," there won't be any conflict in your mind. That's the kind of situation the process is designed for. Unfortunately it's also designed for a world where you can mostly trust what a 911 caller is saying. They'll have to tighten that up, especially after this incident. I just hope it doesn't get so bad that real victims have to beg and plead for 15 minutes and show two forms of ID and receive an auth code on their 2FA before a cop can show up to save them.

Post reply on HN