Discretion still matters – don’t hurt your career by sharing too much • Hacker News Board

Re: Discretion still matters – don’t hurt your career by sharing too much

#81

Post by greenrd » Thu, Dec 28, 2017, 9:17 PM UTC

aetherson wrote: post #13

I'm 40, and some of my coworkers are like 25. I'm about two management levels above the basic engineers, but we're a small company and everyone knows everyone. So I'm having lunch with some of the engineers, and one of them shares out of the blue that she regrets getting a computer science degree at her (good) college, and thinks she should've gone into business instead. And my immediate thought is, "For god's sake,…

See - even this woman who studied CS and got a job in the field ended up regretting it. And that's hardly an isolated example. I'm not saying all women who study CS regret it - far from it - but maybe James Damore was onto something?

Re: Discretion still matters – don’t hurt your career by sharing too much

#82

Post by greenrd » Thu, Dec 28, 2017, 9:19 PM UTC

rainbowmverse wrote: post #29

foobarchu wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the point was that she shouldn't have shared that information with peers at all, it's that she needs to be more careful about exactly who she's telling it to. OP may easily be in a position later of promoting her to another position. Even if she is confident in her choices by that point, OP will still have that information tucked in their mind, and will (maybe unconciously) utilize it in their decisions…

A good group project with people who are mature enough to handle someone's expression of vulnerability without judgement might be what keeps them in the class. If you reject someone over an expression of doubt, it was never about the doubt.

The reality of group projects is that all too often, one person ends up doing most of the real work.

Group projects don't need to be more infantilising, they need to be more "shape up or ship out!"

Re: Discretion still matters – don’t hurt your career by sharing too much

#83

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Dec 28, 2017, 9:23 PM UTC

mulmen wrote: post #70

bootsz wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

* > (Separately: Don't get an undergraduate degree in business. What a worthless degree.) Depends on the major. Accounting is a pretty legitimate degree with high-ish earning potential. Finance can be semi-legit, but most Wall Street jobs will just as easily take people with math or engineering degrees, often preferring them, and those degrees are way more versatile. Most others will not increase your career options.…

This is a toxic generalization and is unfair to anyone who put in the work to earn and then take advantage of a business degree. Are you honestly arguing that the entire discipline of marketing is worthless? What about project management? Process improvement? Human resources? It's flat wrong to say a business degree is "worthless". I have an undergraduate business degree and I have done very well with it. Your mistak…

[deleted]

Re: Discretion still matters – don’t hurt your career by sharing too much

#84

Post by abiox » Thu, Dec 28, 2017, 9:26 PM UTC

greenrd wrote: post #81

aetherson wrote: post #13

I'm 40, and some of my coworkers are like 25. I'm about two management levels above the basic engineers, but we're a small company and everyone knows everyone. So I'm having lunch with some of the engineers, and one of them shares out of the blue that she regrets getting a computer science degree at her (good) college, and thinks she should've gone into business instead. And my immediate thought is, "For god's sake,…

See - even this woman who studied CS and got a job in the field ended up regretting it. And that's hardly an isolated example. I'm not saying all women who study CS regret it - far from it - but maybe James Damore was onto something?

it's not stated why they felt that way. i'm a guy and have thought that at times myself... for me, mostly because it seems (from this angle) that MBA types can get a great/better salary and have a FAR higher income/status ceiling, all while seemingly having a much easier life than engineers (grass is always greener :P).

Re: Discretion still matters – don’t hurt your career by sharing too much

#85

Post by greenrd » Thu, Dec 28, 2017, 9:26 PM UTC

rainbowmverse wrote: post #50

throwaway0255 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Just because we're yelled and beaten down for every expression of vulnerability growing up doesn't mean we have to perpetuate it into adulthood. Stop the cycle. This is like shaking your fist at gravity. Everyone's in competition all the time whether they like it or not, that's the universe we live in. Given a choice, you're going to advance the person who's glad they got into computer science, all things being equ…

Yeah, I've heard the recruiting pitch. I don't buy it. The universe is vast and indifferent to our puny existence. The belief in the necessity of hostile, anti-vulnerability, winner take all, exploitative competition is a human thing, not a universal truth.

The person you are replying to didn't say exploitative competition. They just said competition.

Indeed, exposing vulnerabilities (of the personal kind, not the security kind) can be imposing in a very inappropriate way.

Your colleague is not obliged to be your free therapist. Don't impose emotional labour on them if their body language or response indicates they don't want to be having this conversation. You don't know what issues they are dealing with, which may be much worse than your own. Talk to a friend or family member, or pay for a therapist.

Re: Discretion still matters – don’t hurt your career by sharing too much

#86

Post by rhombocombus » Thu, Dec 28, 2017, 9:30 PM UTC

misterbowfinger wrote: post #42

aetherson wrote: post #13

I'm 40, and some of my coworkers are like 25. I'm about two management levels above the basic engineers, but we're a small company and everyone knows everyone. So I'm having lunch with some of the engineers, and one of them shares out of the blue that she regrets getting a computer science degree at her (good) college, and thinks she should've gone into business instead. And my immediate thought is, "For god's sake,…

> And my immediate thought is, "For god's sake, don't SAY that shit around me, I'm someone who has a big say in your career prospects." Did you tell her that? Why or why not? Seems like a really good opportunity for a teachable moment.

I have been very fortunate to have bosses pull me aside and give me advice like this while I was young. It has helped me tremendously throughout my working life. I try to keep that in mind as I work with younger people. It can be hard to bring these sorts of things up diplomatically, but it is really important to do it if we expect folks to change their behavior.

Re: Discretion still matters – don’t hurt your career by sharing too much

#87

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Dec 28, 2017, 9:32 PM UTC

neltnerb wrote: post #69

throwaway0255 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Just because we're yelled and beaten down for every expression of vulnerability growing up doesn't mean we have to perpetuate it into adulthood. Stop the cycle. This is like shaking your fist at gravity. Everyone's in competition all the time whether they like it or not, that's the universe we live in. Given a choice, you're going to advance the person who's glad they got into computer science, all things being equ…

I admit I am slightly confused, I would take that comment as an indicator that I should give her more opportunities to sit in on how business decisions are made since she may be far more valuable as a computer-savvy business person. I suppose if she was very negative about the actual work of computer programming I'd be biased against trusting her with long-term projects since she might abandon them. So I suppose it c…

[deleted]

Re: Discretion still matters – don’t hurt your career by sharing too much

#88

Post by mc32 » Thu, Dec 28, 2017, 9:35 PM UTC

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #79

mc32 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My take, is work with what people offer in an official capacity and ignore the informal communication because many people who have similar doubts and inner thoughts simply don't express them. So basically, you'd be "punishing" someone for being honest and potentially promoting someone who is better at "manoeuvering" through the corp labyrinth.

There's two sides to this. From the boss's side, yes, punishing someone for honesty and promoting someone else for keeping their mouth shut on the same feelings is... suboptimal at best. From the worker's side, though, you don't know how smart the boss is. You don't know whether they are a jerk or a compassionate human being. Don't give them ammunition to use against you. (If you know your boss well, and you know the…

I agree with what you said with respect to bosses. Some will certainly hold your doubts and or honesty against you, and that's unfortunate.

So, yes, beware of who your boss is.

Re: Discretion still matters – don’t hurt your career by sharing too much

#89

Post by greenrd » Thu, Dec 28, 2017, 9:42 PM UTC

scarface74 wrote: post #60

rainbowmverse wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> (Separately: Don't get an undergraduate degree in business. What a worthless degree.) It's hard for people to learn things like this if they're afraid to talk to people who've gone down that road for fear that an honest expression of concern will be read as a critical lack of confidence. Just because we're yelled and beaten down for every expression of vulnerability growing up doesn't mean we have to perpetuate it…

I spent 9 years at one company- seven years longer than I should have - and by the time I left in 2008, I was way behind where I should have been. I spent from 2009-2016 admitting weaknesses left and right so I could learn from other people. I think that might have kept me from getting ahead at the 3 companies I worked at during that time, but it was worth it for the skills I picked up. Even at my current position as…

As a tech lead, it's actually easier for you to admit weaknesses, since your subordinates will be happy if you arrange things such that their job satisfaction is high, regardless of how much or little technical work you do. For a front-line engineer it's more dangerous, particularly if there is a perception (even if unfair) of a discrepancy between how they presented themselves at interview, and how they are presenting themselves now. Front-line engineers also don't necessarily know if their employer is thinking of firing them - they therefore are best advised to play it safe with regards to any little thing that their employer could pick up on as a straw that breaks the camel's back. Better safe than sorry.

But yes, there are times when we all need to ask for help, and even here, there are better and worse ways to do it. Again, for a team lead to express vulnerability can be positive in the right circumstances - because it can allow a junior (or indeed a senior) to puff up their chest with pride as they may then be able to help out their boss, show off their knowledge and look really good - and it can help to bond with the team. In contrast, showing vulnerability as a subordinate, to the wrong manager, can just give them an excuse to fire you. That's happened to me twice - I've learned my lesson.

Re: Discretion still matters – don’t hurt your career by sharing too much

#90

Post by sturgill » Thu, Dec 28, 2017, 9:43 PM UTC

rainbowmverse wrote: post #15

aetherson wrote: post #13

I'm 40, and some of my coworkers are like 25. I'm about two management levels above the basic engineers, but we're a small company and everyone knows everyone. So I'm having lunch with some of the engineers, and one of them shares out of the blue that she regrets getting a computer science degree at her (good) college, and thinks she should've gone into business instead. And my immediate thought is, "For god's sake,…

>> (Separately: Don't get an undergraduate degree in business. What a worthless degree.) It's hard for people to learn things like this if they're afraid to talk to people who've gone down that road for fear that an honest expression of concern will be read as a critical lack of confidence. Just because we're yelled and beaten down for every expression of vulnerability growing up doesn't mean we have to perpetuate it…

Having a trusted group of advisors is strongly recommended. Confusing everyone in your office as your professional advisor is ill advised.

Find people that have had success in fields that interest you and cultivate relationships with them. And explicitly ask, "Would you be willing to be one of my professional advisors?" You'll want 3-5 of these.

From time-to-time, grab lunch or coffee. And ask the advantages of an MBA or whatever certification. Ask "does job X seem like a good next move for me given my career goals?" Then pick up the tab.

But never, ever confuse lunch at your company's cafeteria as the time or place to raise professional doubts. Absolute confidence at work; and raise your personal insecurities in private with people you can trust and that are expecting that kind of conversation.

Here's my current advisor group:

My mom and dad. I'm mid-30's with three kids of my own. My own parents are a great sounding board for "how is my work/life balance? Am I focused too much on cash at the expense of time with my kids? Will another relocation be too much to ask of my children?" They don't know much about what I do and can't help me build business models, but they raised 5 kids and can effectively call out my B.S.

The dean when I got an MBA. We did a lot of work together while I was at school. He's an incredibly connected individual and is someone I trust to guide me with business ethics. In a failed startup I had some private issues. I met the dean for coffee and he gave me some of the best advice I've ever received: "keep your chin up, your mouth shut, and your integrity intact." Basically "That sucks, move on." He's a "big picture" / "career arc" kind of guy who could help me get a conversation with just about anyone I want. And he's a wonderful person I consider a good friend.

A previous co-worker who is a marketing executive. We hit it off at work. I'm passionate about quantitative marketing. He was more brand oriented. Enough overlap where we had shared interests; different enough we weren't direct competitors at the office. He's been around and knows the pitfalls of business. Sample advice: "ignore all 'Growth hacker' job listings. They're brutal jobs and the first to get axed when numbers are missed. You'll be held accountable for the things you are least likely to be able to control."

None of these conversations happen casually. They are planned discussions with people I have a close relationship. And none of them work in my org (I asked my old coworker to be an advisor _after_ he left).

Be purposeful in what you say to whom.