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Discretion still matters – don’t hurt your career by sharing too much

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Re: Discretion still matters – don’t hurt your career by sharing too much

#41

I'm 40, and some of my coworkers are like 25. I'm about two management levels above the basic engineers, but we're a small company and everyone knows everyone. So I'm having lunch with some of the engineers, and one of them shares out of the blue that she regrets getting a computer science degree at her (good) college, and thinks she should've gone into business instead. And my immediate thought is, "For god's sake,…

My take, is work with what people offer in an official capacity and ignore the informal communication because many people who have similar doubts and inner thoughts simply don't express them.

So basically, you'd be "punishing" someone for being honest and potentially promoting someone who is better at "manoeuvering" through the corp labyrinth.

Re: Discretion still matters – don’t hurt your career by sharing too much

#42

I'm 40, and some of my coworkers are like 25. I'm about two management levels above the basic engineers, but we're a small company and everyone knows everyone. So I'm having lunch with some of the engineers, and one of them shares out of the blue that she regrets getting a computer science degree at her (good) college, and thinks she should've gone into business instead. And my immediate thought is, "For god's sake,…

> And my immediate thought is, "For god's sake, don't SAY that shit around me, I'm someone who has a big say in your career prospects."

Did you tell her that? Why or why not? Seems like a really good opportunity for a teachable moment.

Re: Discretion still matters – don’t hurt your career by sharing too much

#43
beautiful. strategic.

> Leah Fessler doesn’t seem to get that she is being forced to do this to serve the interests of capital. She is not doing this with a group of friends. A late night session in a dorm room rewards this kind of openness, but an exploitive economic system seeks this information to gain power over the workers.

Re: Discretion still matters – don’t hurt your career by sharing too much

#44

I'm 40, and some of my coworkers are like 25. I'm about two management levels above the basic engineers, but we're a small company and everyone knows everyone. So I'm having lunch with some of the engineers, and one of them shares out of the blue that she regrets getting a computer science degree at her (good) college, and thinks she should've gone into business instead. And my immediate thought is, "For god's sake,…

>> (Separately: Don't get an undergraduate degree in business. What a worthless degree.) It's hard for people to learn things like this if they're afraid to talk to people who've gone down that road for fear that an honest expression of concern will be read as a critical lack of confidence. Just because we're yelled and beaten down for every expression of vulnerability growing up doesn't mean we have to perpetuate it…

> Just because we're yelled and beaten down for every expression of vulnerability growing up doesn't mean we have to perpetuate it into adulthood. Stop the cycle.

This is like shaking your fist at gravity.

Everyone's in competition all the time whether they like it or not, that's the universe we live in. Given a choice, you're going to advance the person who's glad they got into computer science, all things being equal.

Even worse than regretting her degree in computer science is the poor judgment she displayed by saying that in front of a manager. The statement is clearly not in her own best interest, it's fairly obvious, and she completely failed to recognize that.

It's not a huge deal by any means, but objectively, it's a negative indication. Why should managers ignore that? Those are relevant data points she just revealed.

Re: Discretion still matters – don’t hurt your career by sharing too much

#45
post #32
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am 31, moved into a new team 1.5 years ago. I am married 7 years, no kids... and have carried a hefty mortgage for 8 years. My other team mates are 38-55. Have kids, some even grandkids. While I can relate to alot of things, I can't stand their constant discussions about their kids and other family stuff... I just can't relate.(edit: not that I can't relate really, I just can't stand their constant distractions wit…

34 never married no kids. Probably because the sentiment that someone doesn’t want to talk about family makes little sense to someone who’s life revolves around family. I give people blank stares when they talk football to me. I still try to relate. “Yeah my family chose all loser teams so the game lost me.” It’s not a great sentiment to hear for someone who loves football, but they get why I’m out of the discussion.…

Football is pretty much chess with guided missiles. The basic rule is easy enough to remember (4 tries to go 10 yards or the other team gets the ball), and I've never met a football fan who minded filling in the gaps of the current discussion.

It's the same with kids. I have no trouble finding things to talk about with my friend who's raising a kid at a similar age. It often starts with talking about how we were raised. Maybe it's worth rethinking your approach to these kinds of discussions.

Re: Discretion still matters – don’t hurt your career by sharing too much

#46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. That sums it up. When you hear something like: " Yeah, I know, I’m so scared. When Lawrence offered me this job, I was so worried about whether I could do it. I mean it’s all so complicated, and the connections to be made over the network are so uncertain, and then, everything, the timeouts, the servers, lost messages, everything I have to think about it, it’s just really overwhelming and scary, you know? "…

> lack of confidence Hide your doubts, smile and act confident and you'll be OK most of the time... ..but when it fails it can lead to disasters, especially if entire teams are engaging in this behavior.

Not sure if you're being funny, but I disagree that we should hide our doubts or insecurities. I know it sounds contrary to what you want to do in that moment, though.

However, don't exaggerate or emphasize them too much either, but rather get in the mindset of wanting to become better at the skill/subject, and display that mindset.

I'd think much higher of a person who did that than someone who pretends everything is fine when they are struggling. Also, if you display this mindset, people will offer to help you, too!

Re: Discretion still matters – don’t hurt your career by sharing too much

#47
I'm a woman and I tend to be very open about a lot of things. I am generally being genuine/ authentic, but I had a very private life for a lot of years and I had to learn that communicating effectively with people who simply aren't going to be part of your inner circle just works fundamentally differently from communicating with those folks.

Understanding is very much contextual. There isn't enough time in the day for you to have a deep, meaningful, close relationship to every passing acquaintance.

I don't need to feel people are up to no good to decide that certain kinds of information are not appropriate in certain contexts. It is a waste of everyone's time and a poor communication practice to introduce personal elements that aren't pertinent.

Discretion is certainly an element of that. But I think of it more in terms of effective communication.

If someone has just met you and knows almost nothing about you, leading with talking about how scared you are is going to get interpreted very differently from saying that to people who know you well. If the entirety of their knowledge of you is "I'm scared I can't handle this job," well don't be surprised if the conclusion is that you are simply in over your head.

Re: Discretion still matters – don’t hurt your career by sharing too much

#48
Traditionally, for a man among men, expressing confidence has always been safe. If a man expresses confidence in a situation where confidence is foolhardy, other men will interpret it as a performance of masculinity. I'm sure Rick understands this project is going to be a nightmare. I'm glad he's gung-ho about it. If you express fear, on the other hand, your fear will be scrutinized to determine whether it is well-founded and appropriate to the situation. I'm worried about Rick — he seems terrified by this project. I know it's going to be tough, but geez, grow a pair.

Women among women are in the opposite boat. Expressing vulnerability is always safe because it can always be read as a performance of femininity, but expressing confidence invites scrutiny as to whether it is well-founded or arrogant.

Both of those scenarios have a safe fall-back based on gender expectations. When you mix genders, the fall-backs disappear. In tech, this is virtually always a problem faced by a woman in a male-dominated workplace. If she's ever momentarily in doubt, there's no safe direction to err. She can't take the masculine safe route and project bravado, because that behavior only reads correctly from a man. Nor can she afford to fall back on traditional expectations of women, because traditional expectations of women would suggest she isn't competent at a technical job. So she has to hit the correct balance of confidence and vulnerability every time. There's no safe fallback.

And even when she hits the correct, situationally appropriate balance of confidence, the men around her might still be confused about how they're supposed to interpret it coming from a woman. Unless they analyze her confidence in a rational, point-by-point manner — and how often do you do that in a workday? — they're relying on instincts that are conditioned by cultural processes largely outside their control to 1) expect confidence from coworkers and 2) not expect confidence from women.

Anyway, it's pretty disheartening to see an incident that is heavily colored by gender expectations related and acknowledged as such but then interpreted as a story about a one-dimensional spectrum from expressiveness to guardedness. A man in the same situation would have been allowed a generous expression of confidence and self-regard, even if it reflected less technical insight than the woman's fears did. Women and men both routinely filter the emotions they share with other people, sharing some and repressing others. Showing vulnerability isn't about being unguarded or guarded, or about naive "authenticity" versus Machiavellian "performing authenticity." It's about filtering differently for a different set of expectations. Nor is it about women not understanding that personal knowledge can be used against them. Witness teenage girls feeling forced to suicide when other girls use their secrets against them. Women are not (and cannot afford to be) less socially careful than men, or less aware of the dangers of sharing.

Nor is it true that "if you are ambitious, all of the top jobs are reserved for people who are closed and guarded." Successful male leaders are rarely cold fish and are often very personally charismatic. They have to be mindful of the effect their expressions of emotion have on the people around them, and of the necessity of using that power to inspire loyalty and sacrifice. You can't make it to the top without inspiring trust in people. In case that sounds overly touchy-feely, let me add that it's especially important if your ambition requires other people to fail. It's easier to knife someone in the back than take them head-on. The "closed and guarded" person is never going to enjoy someone's loyalty or take a rival by surprise, because everyone is going to treat him like a snake. (That's one path to power, but judging by the people you see in high positions, it isn't a common one. Even Donald Trump projects a lot of interior qualities such as confidence, defiance, and self-regard and inspires loyalty in people who feel that he is gifting those emotions to people who need them.)

On a final note, I suspect the author understands 90% of this but is stranded on the wrong side of the enormous dichotomous wall he has erected between authentic emotional expression and manipulative emotional performance. People always filter and selectively amplify the emotions they express. That filtering is not inherently false, malicious, or untrustworthy. It's an inevitable part of being human, another complication when understanding another human being. A person's filter can be a positive or negative aspect of them, something they use in constructive or destructive ways. That's a better way to evaluate this question of vulnerability in the workplace. What kind of filter do I want my employees or coworkers to have at work? Should we systematically favor bravado over vulnerability? My gut feeling is that we should not.

Re: Discretion still matters – don’t hurt your career by sharing too much

#49

> We worked with Lisa for 2 years and we produced our biggest successes with her. So, being honest paid off for her? Most successful CEOs are very open about everything, and don't keep secrets. Secrets and opacity are what destroy companies and relationships, not the reverse.

> So, being honest paid off for her?

The article describes how her openness almost cost her the job offer. In the author's opinion, she made a mistake by being open about her insecurities in a job interview.

I've worked with people who are probably too open about their insecurities. I think you can be open about what you don't know without saying things like "I don't know if I can do this job." Frankly, I don't really know how to respond to that kind of statement in a professional setting beyond resorting to platitudes.

I think there are better ways to talk about your insecurities, like saying "I have experience with X, but I haven't worked with Y, and I know I'll need to figure Y out for this role." That seems okay to me. Knowing what you don't know is really important.

> Most successful CEOs are very open about everything, and don't keep secrets. Secrets and opacity are what destroy companies and relationships, not the reverse.

Everyone has a private interior life. Everyone feels things and thinks things that they don't voice publicly.

Re: Discretion still matters – don’t hurt your career by sharing too much

#50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> (Separately: Don't get an undergraduate degree in business. What a worthless degree.) It's hard for people to learn things like this if they're afraid to talk to people who've gone down that road for fear that an honest expression of concern will be read as a critical lack of confidence. Just because we're yelled and beaten down for every expression of vulnerability growing up doesn't mean we have to perpetuate it…

> Just because we're yelled and beaten down for every expression of vulnerability growing up doesn't mean we have to perpetuate it into adulthood. Stop the cycle. This is like shaking your fist at gravity. Everyone's in competition all the time whether they like it or not, that's the universe we live in. Given a choice, you're going to advance the person who's glad they got into computer science, all things being equ…

Yeah, I've heard the recruiting pitch. I don't buy it. The universe is vast and indifferent to our puny existence. The belief in the necessity of hostile, anti-vulnerability, winner take all, exploitative competition is a human thing, not a universal truth.
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