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India’s IT industry laid off more than 56k employees this year

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Re: India’s IT industry laid off more than 56k employees this year

#371

Post by prepend »

expertentipp wrote: post #356
saguro wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ProgrammerHumor/comments/4k994j/if_... This is how good talent views any kind of tests. I can't blame them. There is no other professional industry in the world, where candidates with 6+ years of professional success are asked to sit a god damned test every time they apply for a job. Insulting doesn't even begin to describe the problem with this concept. Don't get me wrong, I understand where…

> https://www.reddit.com/r/ProgrammerHumor/comments/4k994j/if_... . Alternative version: Interviewer : Are there any tables you construct in spare time and expose for public use? Carpenter : huh?! Interviewer : To proceed we will need you to construct a chair for us, for free. Carpenter : [ starts throwing chairs ]

Interestingly I know a few carpenters and they all have personal projects.

The analogy isn’t right because you’d need a similar carpentry task that takes 30 minutes like fizzbuzz (that should really take 5 minutes). It would be like asking a carpenter to put together their workstation from a disorganized shop. A pretty reasonable request.

Lots of people complain about this approach, but it is confusing as not a single good programmer has ever been bothered by coding screens. Who are these people who get upset? And where are their GitHub portfolios? Are there that many bullshitters who aren’t confortable enough in their skills to spend less than an hour on coding problems as part of an interview?

Re: India’s IT industry laid off more than 56k employees this year

#372

Post by expertentipp »

prepend wrote: post #371
expertentipp wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> https://www.reddit.com/r/ProgrammerHumor/comments/4k994j/if_... . Alternative version: Interviewer : Are there any tables you construct in spare time and expose for public use? Carpenter : huh?! Interviewer : To proceed we will need you to construct a chair for us, for free. Carpenter : [ starts throwing chairs ]

Interestingly I know a few carpenters and they all have personal projects. The analogy isn’t right because you’d need a similar carpentry task that takes 30 minutes like fizzbuzz (that should really take 5 minutes). It would be like asking a carpenter to put together their workstation from a disorganized shop. A pretty reasonable request. Lots of people complain about this approach, but it is confusing as not a singl…

Is it really a 1-2 hour project? 1-2 hours is enough to set up a repository, project files, boilerplate code, and solve perhaps very simplified version of a problem. Each time I really spent 2 hours on take home assignment, the recruitment process terminates shortly after I submit the solution. It’s asking for free labor. Never ever a fully functional web application solving some problem will take 2 hours to create and those recruiting know it very well, oftentimes they’re just arrogant cunts testing for obedience.

Re: India’s IT industry laid off more than 56k employees this year

#373

Post by shagie »

constdragon wrote: post #208
shagie wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends on what one's career goals are. From what I understand (I'm not Indian, but I've worked with many over the years), for a sizable portion of the workforce, the goal isn't to be senior programmer but rather management. The way you get to management is by having people report to you and then get a new job higher up on the ladder at another company (it is my understanding that promotions from within the compan…

Most people in India don't seem to be bothered by a brain drain and don't treat it as a problem as such. You have to remember that India has more than a billion people and struggles to find work for all of them. I was surprised to see (in contrast to other countries trying to stem brain drain) that its a stated goal by the Indian prime minister that they want to see some 50 million (more than the population of many c…

Absolutely correct. The brain drain for a small fraction of a percent that get visas to work in other countries is insignificant in the grand scheme of things. It's a mere trickle compared to the reservoir of people behind it.

Though, its more of a next generation thing that will be interesting - the changing demographics. The US has birthright citizenship - all the children born in the US to visa holders will be US citizens. That will do some interesting things in a few places when they start needing to pay taxes in the US if they are overseas and haven't given up their citizenships (n.b. I'm not an expat and so am not completely versed in the associated tax law).

Sending workers abroad and having them send money home to family outsources the social support structures needed in India and reduces the pressure for unemployment. This feeds into the growing nationalism and xenophobia in many western countries. In other countries it allows people with fewer scruples to take advantage of this labor force and essentially turn them into slaves (confiscation of passports and financial trickery).

I'm not sure where this is going to come back and where the ultimate costs with this policy are going to be paid - but they're going to be paid somewhere.

The Indian tech industry is certainly going for a synergy approach with western markets rather than... say, Japan ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galápagos_syndrome ) or China (copy and maintain behind the Great Firewall).

Its going to be interesting to see how this all plays out over the years to come.

Re: India’s IT industry laid off more than 56k employees this year

#374

Post by j45 »

saguro wrote: post #365
j45 wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thread is about a developer's issues with being tested during interviews, so I would say the potential employee is entitled if balking about being asked about their abilities to the extent that the employer is the one signing the cheque, and a basis for the employer being able to add value in exchange for salary is still being established. Knowing a little more than non-technical employers doesn't place an inexpe…

> If this was attractive to tech folks, the hiring tests would include more business problem oriented questions than fizzing and buzzing And yet business people don't get any tests. No one else on the entire planet gets tests for almost every role opportunity they want to explore. So why do developers have to? Actually, I can answer that. The answer is because the overwhelming majority of a modern company's productiv…

I'm a developer. Possibly a little more experienced from the level of ad hominem negativity you're comfortable directing at others to feel better about one's self.

A software developers union would be interesting. Accreditation from testing to be in a professional body will still have people who can hide among the work of others, but much less so. Also a challenge for a tech union would be the rapid changing nature of software development compared to other unionized industries to maintain a baseline. Not the first time it's been thought about.

Non tech positions are even harder to test for at hiring. Especially since so many hr, accounting jobs themselves are requiring increased digital transformation skills of knowing how to select and implement business systems.

Tech hiring interviews were designed largely by tech people.

The real hilarious part is seeing a non tech hr person try to buy a hr software system and implement it. Being the subject matter expert no longer means an ability implement and roll out programs as it used to - its a growing issue that requires people who can understand and work with detail.

Working with details requires an ability to care about the plight of others, organizations and their processes to prove to lower the suffering of people at the hands of their employment environments.

Re: India’s IT industry laid off more than 56k employees this year

#375

Post by calvinbhai »

RandomCSGeek wrote: post #301
sytelus wrote: post #292

I see a large number of bright Indian developers now staying back in country because its almost impossible to get H1B visas (that was actually the case even without Trump and now its getting much worse). This has started interesting trends in India. All of the sudden, now there is VC culture shaping up and I'm seeing lots of Indian developers doing their own startups. Indian newspapers frequently are putting spotligh…

As an Indian CSE student, I agree with this. But there's more. The downfall of IT industry, and general decrease in need of IT engineers, is finally decreasing the amount of students joining engineering. Admissions on avg are 50% of capacity, with many colleges having less 30%. This will lead to closure of many sub-par quality colleges, which I hope will improve overall quality of Indian IT engineers.

This is great to know! I hope this ends up cleaning up the bad colleges, and improving the quality of engineers!

Re: India’s IT industry laid off more than 56k employees this year

#376

Post by calvinbhai »

jdavis703 wrote: post #329
viridian wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the risk of being downvoted until my comment is dead like below, I have to say I agree with muninn_. This is a great thing for India, and it's really unfortunate that the US has been poaching academic and technical talent to their own advantage, and the disadvantage of less well off countries for so long. The brain drain of the US (and the UK and Germany to a much smaller extent) is a real phenomena, and it's espe…

It's not like Indian developers are being kidnapped and shipped over on a boat to the U.S. Everyone who comes to the U.S. does so on their own volition, jumping through crazy immigration hoops. It's a free market for jobs, and if in the past Indian (or for that matter Chinese and other countries with a brain drain) companies couldn't complete, well that's their own fault.

Its not a free market for Indian developers coming to US on H1b. Its just high paying shackled visa.

As someone who worked for a long time on H1b (at startups in US), I realized only later how shackled I was compared to even high skilled immigrants from other countries!

I think with tighter immigration restrictions in US and EU, its been amazing to see many product companies popping up in India (instead of just the IT services industry).

US is sitting on a golden egg (of H1b engineers in US). If US makes it difficult for Indian immigrants, sure the immigrants will lose in the short term, but long term it is good for Indian and Indians.

Re: India’s IT industry laid off more than 56k employees this year

#377

Post by calvinbhai »

at-fates-hands wrote: post #354
viridian wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the risk of being downvoted until my comment is dead like below, I have to say I agree with muninn_. This is a great thing for India, and it's really unfortunate that the US has been poaching academic and technical talent to their own advantage, and the disadvantage of less well off countries for so long. The brain drain of the US (and the UK and Germany to a much smaller extent) is a real phenomena, and it's espe…

It's interesting you bring up this point. When I went to college in North Dakota, there was a similar feeling with kids from North Dakota getting technical degrees (computer science, engineering, medical) and then moving to Minnesota and getting jobs there as opposed to keeping that knowledge in state. There was a real push to try and keep these people from moving to Minnesota. At the time, my three best friends and…

this works for every level in India. People from villages move to nearby big towns, cities. and from there to state capitals or tech/business/finance hubs. If ND has no thriving tech ecosystem, whats the point staying there?

Re: India’s IT industry laid off more than 56k employees this year

#378

Post by calvinbhai »

aws_ls wrote: post #337
sytelus wrote: post #292

I see a large number of bright Indian developers now staying back in country because its almost impossible to get H1B visas (that was actually the case even without Trump and now its getting much worse). This has started interesting trends in India. All of the sudden, now there is VC culture shaping up and I'm seeing lots of Indian developers doing their own startups. Indian newspapers frequently are putting spotligh…

Your narrative has some flaws. Startup events have been happening in India since past 10 years or so. Ever since Google won the war with Microsoft. Flipkart was founded in 2007. Ola soon after. This H1B visa issue is more of past 2-3 year issue. Admittedly it will have some impact. But definitely not the narrative you paint.

H1b visa issue is extreme for immigrants from India, and the rules over the last 15-20 years are to be blamed. Trump administration is only making it worse (for immigrants and crooked employers) by plugging every loop hole and interpreting the laws to the strictest extent.

The last 2-3 years it feels like its become extreme because: 1) Too much noise in media about new POTUS being hard on immigrants 2) A rising US economy means more demand for engineers. So there's more need of engineers, H1b or not. Hence more companies are getting effected by lack of access to such talent.

Re: India’s IT industry laid off more than 56k employees this year

#379

Post by [deleted] »

saguro wrote: post #248
pavanred wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indian IT Outsourcing Industry ⊆ Indian IT Industry India is a huge country with a huge population and a rapidly growing economy and a domestic market. Even if it was true a decade or two ago, should we still keep assuming that anything that affects the Indian IT industry is caused solely by the outsourcing industry. Surely HN can stop having the same conversation every time anything regarding India and IT comes up.…

> Indian IT Outsourcing Industry ⊆ Indian IT Industry Indian IT outsourcing has been the vast majority of cash flow into the Indian IT sector, that much is undeniable. There is some actually good Indian IT talent out there and it's picking up steam, but that's not where the money is yet. And to the western/eruropean markets, Indian IT industry == Indian IT outsourcing industry. And the Indian IT outsourcing industry…

[deleted]

Re: India’s IT industry laid off more than 56k employees this year

#380

Post by FilterSweep »

j45 wrote: post #364
FilterSweep wrote: post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll add that the threat of H1Bs have been used as a threatening tool to US employees by US companies.[0] Can't work longer hours for less pay? Reasonably expect your wages to increase with each year? Fine! We'll hire someone from outside. And generally, when someone takes a criminally low level of pay for their high skill labor, all workers, domestic and international, suffer. [0] This is the other side of the coin,…

I hope such hardball tactics will set up those companies to fail at their digital transformation they are undertaking anyways. All labor, skilled or not, local or not, deserve basic dignity and respect. The reality sadly is some groups have to work much harder for much less and it is leveraged against not only them, but other groups too. Seeing freelancer rates worldwide slowly creep up may be a significant of things…

> All labor, skilled or not, local or not, deserve basic dignity and respect.

I fully agree. I hope these rates increasing will help the talent in this entire industry price itself better.

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