Earlier quoted context omitted.
My guess this is due to the remnants of the good soviet math/science program in schools and universities. Which was originally heavily influenced by Kolmogorov by the way.
And a lack of job prospects in the region. The decent developers have no alternative but to work in the local outsourcing shops.
India’s IT industry laid off more than 56k employees this year
351–360 of 420 posts
Re: India’s IT industry laid off more than 56k employees this year
#352Earlier quoted context omitted.
I agree with everything you said except one bit. > In my experience, someone who refuses or takes offense at a well-framed coding exercise is probably not going to be someone you want on your team. In my experience those who refuse are the top of the top. We adapted our interview and intake process to accommodate these people (usually with a more stringent and goal oriented probation period), and it was the best thin…
That really depends then on what one is hiring for. An entry level position? Mid level? Senior? or Rock Star? Those who are opinionated and snobby, even if they are the best preforming, may not be the best fit in many environments. A not insignificant portion of a senior developer's time can be spent mentoring people - and the snobby person may not be the best choice for that. If the goal is to hire a team of one - g…
Re: India’s IT industry laid off more than 56k employees this year
#353Earlier quoted context omitted.
and will those sites rank properly in search engines
I think for all three, the basic SEO stuff is actually taken care of for you as well. I had zero interest in the services until I read that it meant I wouldn't have to consult yet another seo guide written within the last six months because I wanted to stand up something new.
Re: India’s IT industry laid off more than 56k employees this year
#354I see a large number of bright Indian developers now staying back in country because its almost impossible to get H1B visas (that was actually the case even without Trump and now its getting much worse). This has started interesting trends in India. All of the sudden, now there is VC culture shaping up and I'm seeing lots of Indian developers doing their own startups. Indian newspapers frequently are putting spotligh…
At the risk of being downvoted until my comment is dead like below, I have to say I agree with muninn_. This is a great thing for India, and it's really unfortunate that the US has been poaching academic and technical talent to their own advantage, and the disadvantage of less well off countries for so long. The brain drain of the US (and the UK and Germany to a much smaller extent) is a real phenomena, and it's espe…
When I went to college in North Dakota, there was a similar feeling with kids from North Dakota getting technical degrees (computer science, engineering, medical) and then moving to Minnesota and getting jobs there as opposed to keeping that knowledge in state.
There was a real push to try and keep these people from moving to Minnesota. At the time, my three best friends and teammates were all from various parts of rural North Dakota. All ended up with engineering degrees. All said the same thing, "Why would I stay here and get paid $40K when I have a masters degree in Mechanical Engineering, when I can take a job in Minnesota and make $80K?"
Re: India’s IT industry laid off more than 56k employees this year
#355Earlier quoted context omitted.
I would contend that engineering FIRMS have upped their skills with more emphasis on soft skills and management feel goods (having people on site tomorrow if asked, training and such. They’re offering a larger value proposition at a higher cost when management has realized that lowest bid doesn’t necessarily mean best value.
Very fair argument. Let's dissect the argument, engineering firms have improved their soft skills and value proposition. Assuming these firms are US based and all american, then by going popular wisdom here, how can american firms possibly have poor soft skills than Indian firms! I'm sure there were many instances when quality received from Indian firms were abysmal. However, imo, it's sort of online propaganda-ish t…
And yes, the code that one finds after the eventual disaster when something goes wrong is staggering.
My anecdote for this is... I worked at a retail company implementing a new point of sales system. For a year before and the first year I was there (different team) there was an Indian "sales engineer" team that the vendor brought in. They weren't able to get the system working and integrated with the existing devices (it has to work with this receipt printer, this mag strip reader, this magnetic ink reader... these are the types of sales that we offer that aren't part of the core system, all rounding of pennies must be in the favor of the customer (1000 pennies in the favor of 1000 customers costs less than one complaint), etc...).
When milestones were missed, rather than revising the estimates, for it, the sales engineering team brought in more people. Aside from this courting Brooks's law, it again increased billable hours.
Aside from not getting it working, when management canned that approach all of the institutional knowledge of how it did work up to that point was lost. The documentation that was provided was worthless (but they billed their time to create it).
Several months later, the project was started up again - this time with a fully in house team. About two months in to the year long deadline (and for us it was a deadline - not just a milestone), we commented to management that we were going to need help getting this running - there was too much to do and not enough time. Within a month we got some consultants from intertech ( https://www.intertech.com ). And while there was some ramp up time with that code base, they were helping and contributing within two weeks.
Once the system was on track for the rollout, a large phase 2 project was given to them - returns. The business logic behind returns wasn't simple (do you credit the money back to a card? what if the card is a visa gift card? cash? store credit? restocking fees (none if the item is in stock, some if the item has been discontinued), taxes (purchased in state A, returned at another store in state B), etc...). The backend system chosen to handle this was drools.
Now, a outsourcing company here has two choices they can make. They can either try to make something that only they know how to modify and keep milking the project with billable hours until its replaced by another company... or they can try to transfer that information to the client (with training sessions (billable hours) and good documentation (billable hours)).
For the in house people who were going to be maintaining the system, we got excellent training and documentation. If they got up and left the next day, we'd be able to maintain it with only a minor hiccup. The cost to maintain it with a few in house developers was going to be less than keeping consultants on all the time.
The moral here is that it wasn't so much the "we can provide a solution" that won over the project but also the "we have demonstrated our competence in the first phase and can furthermore provide training to you that will decrease the maintenance costs over the lifetime of the project." Even with the increase of initial billable time - it was going to be cheaper.
The value was not only in the demonstrated competence working with the in house team (rather than trying to do it all), but in providing all of the associated support structures and soft things that management can see as improving the value of the service beyond lines of code written.
Re: India’s IT industry laid off more than 56k employees this year
#356Earlier quoted context omitted.
badly implemented remote tests. Ftfy
https://www.reddit.com/r/ProgrammerHumor/comments/4k994j/if_... This is how good talent views any kind of tests. I can't blame them. There is no other professional industry in the world, where candidates with 6+ years of professional success are asked to sit a god damned test every time they apply for a job. Insulting doesn't even begin to describe the problem with this concept. Don't get me wrong, I understand where…
Alternative version:
Interviewer: Are there any tables you construct in spare time and expose for public use?
Carpenter: huh?!
Interviewer: To proceed we will need you to construct a chair for us, for free.
Carpenter: [starts throwing chairs]
Re: India’s IT industry laid off more than 56k employees this year
#357Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is plain BS. I don't recall any CS department in India (and I know 100's) teaching, MS-word, Logo, Basic, Powerpoint, excel etc. However, I did TA'ed at Rice University, TX, Excel course for freshman.
they don't teach excel in the comp sci department at Rice.
COMP 100 teaches students how to use common software for organizing, searching, and computing on information, with an emphasis on business-related tasks. It introduces engineering design via a medium-sized team project. The course examines
databases — Microsoft Access spreadsheets — Microsoft Excel
Re: India’s IT industry laid off more than 56k employees this year
#358Re: India’s IT industry laid off more than 56k employees this year
#359Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's not like Indian developers are being kidnapped and shipped over on a boat to the U.S. Everyone who comes to the U.S. does so on their own volition, jumping through crazy immigration hoops. It's a free market for jobs, and if in the past Indian (or for that matter Chinese and other countries with a brain drain) companies couldn't complete, well that's their own fault.
Your position seems to be based in an assumption that the issue is competitiveness alone. Another factor is Indian companies like wipro and reliance are buying operations outright in North America. The ship and kidnapping reference to slavery is in poor taste, It might be easier to get your point across and help people be more open to exploring your perspective if you weren't so easy and loose with colloquialisms tha…
And generally, when someone takes a criminally low level of pay for their high skill labor, all workers, domestic and international, suffer.
[0] This is the other side of the coin, career American engineers being fired and "forced"(for their severance) to train cheaper Replacements https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/04/us/last-task-after-layoff... And Disney is just one example - tons of US companies "clean house" when they get frustrated at a high operating budget.
Re: India’s IT industry laid off more than 56k employees this year
#360Earlier quoted context omitted.
isn't a lot of the outsourcing connected to western markets and that very VC money? i think it's all connected you'll find.
I'd say very little of that work is for startups it's more for large financial companies, large established software companies, telecoms, hollywood etc.
A couple of times, even though that team does not have an officially important role, you would see stalls on major decisions until the remote team had a chance to weigh in.