Airbus ready to axe A380 if fails to win Emirates deal • Hacker News Board

Re: Airbus ready to axe A380 if fails to win Emirates deal

#151

Post by namdnay » Wed, Dec 27, 2017, 5:12 PM UTC

org3432 wrote: post #141

gsnedders wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dubai is slot contained, and they fly to plenty of other slot contained airports. As far as I'm aware, London to Dubai alone has seven daily A380 flights. More generally, Emirates have gone for a single daily A380 flight instead of more frequent flights to many destinations.

Interesting, it just seems hard to believe the UAE with a population of little more than Austria would have that many travelers.

It's just a hub at an arbitrary (for travelers) location.

People aren't actually going to Dubai. DXB is an extreme of course, but trasnfer passengers represents a huge part of the activity for many hubs: 30% of passengers at LHR are in transfer, and more than 50% at ATL!

Re: Airbus ready to axe A380 if fails to win Emirates deal

#152

Post by exabrial » Wed, Dec 27, 2017, 5:16 PM UTC

mpweiher wrote: post #33

I think coverage of the A380 often misses the point that at the time, Boeing's 747 simply had no competition, whereas all of Airbus's planes did. So Airbus pretty much had to create the A380 in order to protect its other lines from cross-subsidy by this unopposed cash-cow. And, also missing from almost all the coverage is the fact that this worked: if the A380 is struggling, the 747 is moribund or dead. Official back…

I don't think the a380 has an analog from Boeing... the 787 is a smaller plane. Boeing gambled on "more choices, more planes" with the 787, whereas AirBus is riding the trend of hauling larger amounts of cattle to established infrastructure.

Re: Airbus ready to axe A380 if fails to win Emirates deal

#153

Post by waqf » Wed, Dec 27, 2017, 5:17 PM UTC

sjm-lbm wrote: post #103

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The general point being nobody wants a passenger plane with the A380 or 747's capacity anymore. Small, efficient, long-distance planes like the 787, A350 and C-Series are rendering the larger format obsolete.

.. just to piggy back on this and add a "why": the smaller long range planes are allowing airlines to connect smaller cities with direct flights while still making money. This is easier for customers, and is insanely popular. An example here is British Airways' service from New Orleans to London. Obviously, some amount of people have always wanted to get from New Orleans to London, but previously they've been flying…

But New Orleans/London isn't two smaller cities, it's one smaller city and one major intercontinental hub. Doesn't expecting to have a nonstop flight from London to every city in the world put unsustainable pressure on landing slots in London?

Re: Airbus ready to axe A380 if fails to win Emirates deal

#154

Post by caoilte » Wed, Dec 27, 2017, 5:19 PM UTC

andy_ppp wrote: post #133

zimzam wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Berlin mention is a reference to the Brandenburg airport which has been under construction since 2006 and was scheduled to be completed in 2012. They are now hoping to open in 2020 or 2021. http://madridjournals.com/2017/12/14/berlins-money-guzzling-...

Yes as I was checking the spelling of Tegel I came across the Brandenburg airport information and linked to it above. It makes Terminal 5 look fast and flawless by comparison!

Terminal 5 was fast and flawless (until the day it opened and the airline computer systems fell over).

Then again, it is a giant metal shed.

Now Crossrail, THAT'S something.

Re: Airbus ready to axe A380 if fails to win Emirates deal

#155

Post by valuearb » Wed, Dec 27, 2017, 5:21 PM UTC

louithethrid wrote: post #93

valuearb wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a lie. Bombardiers planes don’t compete with any Boeing planes. Yet still Boeing flexed their lobbyists.

Lobbyism is what saved the american car industry.

Citation needed, cause no.

Re: Airbus ready to axe A380 if fails to win Emirates deal

#156

Post by rsync » Wed, Dec 27, 2017, 5:25 PM UTC

ghaff wrote: post #84

valuearb wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Boeing played it better because they did not re-invest heavily in the 747, and let it die. It’s not a question of competition. If all of the remaining 747 orders switch to the A380, its still a failure. And as far as airport congestion goes, building new airports is far easier than new rail lines.

>And as far as airport congestion goes, building new airports is far easier than new rail lines. Might tell Berlin that :-) It may be true in general if there's undeveloped space within an hour or so drive of a major city center but major airport construction, at least in Western countries, usually hasn't gone smoothly.

"It may be true in general if there's undeveloped space within an hour or so drive of a major city center but major airport construction, at least in Western countries, usually hasn't gone smoothly."

I remember DIA (Denver) being built relatively quickly and without trouble - is my memory faulty ?

(genuinely curious)

Re: Airbus ready to axe A380 if fails to win Emirates deal

#157

Post by ptaipale » Wed, Dec 27, 2017, 5:26 PM UTC

org3432 wrote: post #141

gsnedders wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dubai is slot contained, and they fly to plenty of other slot contained airports. As far as I'm aware, London to Dubai alone has seven daily A380 flights. More generally, Emirates have gone for a single daily A380 flight instead of more frequent flights to many destinations.

Interesting, it just seems hard to believe the UAE with a population of little more than Austria would have that many travelers.

Obviously, a vast majority of passengers are just changing planes in the hub to go to other destinations.

Re: Airbus ready to axe A380 if fails to win Emirates deal

#158

Post by coredog64 » Wed, Dec 27, 2017, 5:28 PM UTC

mdasen wrote: post #129

mpweiher wrote: post #33

I think coverage of the A380 often misses the point that at the time, Boeing's 747 simply had no competition, whereas all of Airbus's planes did. So Airbus pretty much had to create the A380 in order to protect its other lines from cross-subsidy by this unopposed cash-cow. And, also missing from almost all the coverage is the fact that this worked: if the A380 is struggling, the 747 is moribund or dead. Official back…

Boeing made a bet on the 787. However, as you note, that's an easier bet to make when you already have the 747. Boeing already had a jumbo. It's easy to make a bet on twin-engines getting certified for longer ocean crossings when you already have the 747. There's a lot of things that Boeing bet on with the 787 and you're totally right that it's way easier to make those bets when you already have the 747. However, the…

2 points: Airbus had a competitor to the 747. The A340 was close to the 747 with all the benefits of a single airframe supplier.

Second point: Airbus was in a tough spot with the A380. They had to make it huge because Boeing was always threatening a cheaper 747 stretch. I almost feel like Boeing only ever spent money on the post -400 stretch as a "special teams" move to force Airbus into the A380.

Re: Airbus ready to axe A380 if fails to win Emirates deal

#159

Post by KeepTalking » Wed, Dec 27, 2017, 5:34 PM UTC

While the focus is on the original business case for building Mega planes like the A380 the knock-on/hidden impact of closing the A380 line has detrimental impact on Airports that invested millions into being 'A380 ready'.

Airports around the world spent millions of dollars building out A380 capable terminal gates, wider taxi-ways and bigger baggage handling systems to deal with A380 arrivals and departures. Food caterers invested money in special trucks that deliver food to the upper deck. At the ATC level, slots and flight seperation guidelines were changed to accomodate the whale jets. Some airports were chastised for not investing fast enough (ORD?, SEA) to be A380 ready. I guess they now look wiser. The death of the A380 will reduce risk taking by airports in the future.

Failed aircraft projects have a large negative impact on future appetite for these crafts. Just look at what happened to supersonic flight. We have not seen any commercial investment and research into supersonic air travel. While the case can be easily made against these white elephant projects, the knock on R&D benefits of these airlines projects are amazing.

Selective R&D 'Hand of God' moments that allow government support could be the solution here. At minimum, it would be great if China, Japan or any other aspiring aerospace super powers can buy the project and invest in its future.

Re: Airbus ready to axe A380 if fails to win Emirates deal

#160

Post by nhf » Wed, Dec 27, 2017, 5:36 PM UTC

oblio wrote: post #76

code4tee wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve flown just about every commercial model of airplane made in the last 30 years including Emirates A380 biz class. While that was undoubtedly an amazing trip, it had a lot more to do with the airline than the airplane. My enthusiasm for the trip also dropped off when I had to spend several hours waiting around in the middle of the night at their hub in Dubai.

Why? What happened in Dubai?

Many flights in Dubai happen late at night / very early morning due to a combination of time zone alignment and daytime heat making it harder to service large planes.