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Shanghai sets population at 25M

theguardian.com

151–160 of 240 posts

Re: Shanghai sets population at 25M

#151
post #58

The problem they're trying to solve is city slums, which is common in Asia. I've worked in India before, and every major city (Delhi, Chennai) is filled with massive slums of migrant workers who obviously haven't kept up with the modern development. Without turning this into a pity post and sounding like an uncultured asshole, it was horrifying to see and really broke my heart that people are living in conditions lik…

I wonder how many days have ever stay in beijing? As one grew up in Beijing and lived for 26 years, I can definitely say that comparing Hutong to Indian slum is really really ignorant. You can ask anyone in Beijing, they will tell you that many people live in Hutong is one group of the richest people in Beijing. Nearly all people live in Hutong are Beijing natives, and their houses inside the hutong are called "sihey…

I think pictures are worth a thousand words: http://designhotpot.com/infographic-four-perspectives-to-und...

Also from the article: "while life in the hutongs might sound exciting to some hipsters in town, most of the residents are facing living conditions which resemble those of slums in less developed countries."

Re: Shanghai sets population at 25M

#152
post #58

The problem they're trying to solve is city slums, which is common in Asia. I've worked in India before, and every major city (Delhi, Chennai) is filled with massive slums of migrant workers who obviously haven't kept up with the modern development. Without turning this into a pity post and sounding like an uncultured asshole, it was horrifying to see and really broke my heart that people are living in conditions lik…

I wonder how many days have ever stay in beijing? As one grew up in Beijing and lived for 26 years, I can definitely say that comparing Hutong to Indian slum is really really ignorant. You can ask anyone in Beijing, they will tell you that many people live in Hutong is one group of the richest people in Beijing. Nearly all people live in Hutong are Beijing natives, and their houses inside the hutong are called "sihey…

What do you have to say about this:

http://www.scmp.com/news/china/policies-politics/article/212...

Re: Shanghai sets population at 25M

#153
post #58

The problem they're trying to solve is city slums, which is common in Asia. I've worked in India before, and every major city (Delhi, Chennai) is filled with massive slums of migrant workers who obviously haven't kept up with the modern development. Without turning this into a pity post and sounding like an uncultured asshole, it was horrifying to see and really broke my heart that people are living in conditions lik…

I wonder how many days have ever stay in beijing? As one grew up in Beijing and lived for 26 years, I can definitely say that comparing Hutong to Indian slum is really really ignorant. You can ask anyone in Beijing, they will tell you that many people live in Hutong is one group of the richest people in Beijing. Nearly all people live in Hutong are Beijing natives, and their houses inside the hutong are called "sihey…

$5m is too much for me for a house with no hookup to district heating, running water, dried cow poop as heat insulation, and proper sewage... This is what I don't get about Beijingers or Shanghaites

Re: Shanghai sets population at 25M

#154
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

London hasn't fallen in population since the 90s in fact it's been a steady rise since then(0). These are just the official stats, anecdotally there is noticeably a lot more people in London than when I was a teenager. (0) https://www.trustforlondon.org.uk/data/londons-population-ov...

It's still the same as it was in 1939 though... And if you compare it with any Chinese city, London's slow re-population looks exceptionally sluggish.

Where are the people going to come from? UK is already 83% urbanized: https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.URB.TOTL.IN.ZS?year_...

Not many rurals gonna migrate to the big smoke and as you can tell from Brexit the Brits ain't too keen any more on inwards migration.

Let's not forget that from ~1825 to ~1925 London was the largest city in the world: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_cities_through...

Re: Shanghai sets population at 25M

#155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China is still a relatively poor country (1). I lived in Shanghai for a few years back, and even if you just go into the side streets a few blocks from the richest area in Shanghai (Pudong, Huangpu), you can see slums and sometimes dead people lying in the streets with no assistance. And if you go 10 minutes out of the richest areas, you have people living in hutongs and communist-style buildings with low level life…

Are hutongs really all that bad there? When I was in Beijing, they were nice areas typically, albeit they smelled worse because of things like drainage not running as low, but overall it didn't seem terrible and many of them were pretty big areas for local business. I ask because I always thought Shanghai was more developed pretty much everywhere in comparison to Beijing. I mean, I'm sure the actual commie-blocks wer…

There are no hutongs in Shanghai. The guy is obviously an anti China shill spreadign lies with his 2 hour old shill account.

There are longtangs, but there are very few of them left. Most got torn down to make space, some were preserved and turned into tourist attractions like Tianzifang.

Re: Shanghai sets population at 25M

#156
post #58

The problem they're trying to solve is city slums, which is common in Asia. I've worked in India before, and every major city (Delhi, Chennai) is filled with massive slums of migrant workers who obviously haven't kept up with the modern development. Without turning this into a pity post and sounding like an uncultured asshole, it was horrifying to see and really broke my heart that people are living in conditions lik…

I.

Seeing Like A State is the book G.K. Chesterton would have written if he had gone into economic history instead of literature. Since he didn’t, James Scott had to write it a century later. The wait was worth it.

Scott starts with the story of “scientific forestry” in 18th century Prussia. Enlightenment rationalists noticed that peasants were just cutting down whatever trees happened to grow in the forests, like a chump. They came up with a better idea: clear all the forests and replace them by planting identical copies of Norway spruce (the highest-lumber-yield-per-unit-time tree) in an evenly-spaced rectangular grid. Then you could just walk in with an axe one day and chop down like a zillion trees an hour and have more timber than you could possibly ever want.

This went poorly. The impoverished ecosystem couldn’t support the game animals and medicinal herbs that sustained the surrounding peasant villages, and they suffered an economic collapse. The endless rows of identical trees were a perfect breeding ground for plant diseases and forest fires. And the complex ecological processes that sustained the soil stopped working, so after a generation the Norway spruces grew stunted and malnourished. Yet for some reason, everyone involved got promoted, and “scientific forestry” spread across Europe and the world.

And this pattern repeats with suspicious regularity across history, not just in biological systems but also in social ones.

Natural organically-evolved cities tend to be densely-packed mixtures of dark alleys, tiny shops, and overcrowded streets. Modern scientific rationalists came up with a better idea: an evenly-spaced rectangular grid of identical giant Brutalist apartment buildings separated by wide boulevards, with everything separated into carefully-zoned districts. Yet for some reason, whenever these new rational cities were built, people hated them and did everything they could to move out into more organic suburbs. And again, for some reason the urban planners got promoted, became famous, and spread their destructive techniques around the world.

Ye olde organically-evolved peasant villages tended to be complicated confusions of everybody trying to raise fifty different crops at the same time on awkwardly shaped cramped parcels of land. Modern scientific rationalists came up with a better idea: giant collective mechanized farms growing purpose-bred high-yield crops and arranged in (say it with me) evenly-spaced rectangular grids. Yet for some reason, these giant collective farms had lower yields per acre than the old traditional methods, and wherever they arose famine and mass starvation followed. And again, for some reason governments continued to push the more “modern” methods, whether it was socialist collectives in the USSR, big agricultural corporations in the US, or sprawling banana plantations in the Third World.

Traditional lifestyles of many East African natives were nomadic, involving slash-and-burn agriculture in complicated jungle terrain according to a bewildering variety of ad-hoc rules. Modern scientific rationalists in African governments (both colonial and independent) came up with a better idea – resettlement of the natives into villages, where they could have modern amenities like schools, wells, electricity, and evenly-spaced rectangular grids. Yet for some reason, these villages kept failing: their crops died, their economies collapsed, and their native inhabitants disappeared back into the jungle. And again, for some reason the African governments kept trying to bring the natives back and make them stay, even if they had to blur the lines between villages and concentration camps to make it work.

Why did all of these schemes fail? And more importantly, why were they celebrated, rewarded, and continued, even when the fact of their failure became too obvious to ignore? Scott gives a two part answer.

The first part of the story is High Modernism, an aesthetic taste masquerading as a scientific philosophy. The High Modernists claimed to be about figuring out the most efficient and high-tech way of doing things, but most of them knew little relevant math or science and were basically just LARPing being rational by placing things in evenly-spaced rectangular grids.

But the High Modernists were pawns in service of a deeper motive: the centralized state wanted the world to be “legible”, ie arranged in a way that made it easy to monitor and control. An intact forest might be more productive than an evenly-spaced rectangular grid of Norway spruce, but it was harder to legislate rules for, or assess taxes on.

The state promoted the High Modernists’ platitudes about The Greater Good as cover, in order to implement the totalitarian schemes they wanted to implement anyway. The resulting experiments were usually failures by the humanitarian goals of the Modernists, but resounding successes by the command-and-control goals of the state. And so we gradually transitioned from systems that were messy but full of fine-tuned hidden order, to ones that were barely-functional but really easy to tax.

more at http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/03/16/book-review-seeing-like...

Re: Shanghai sets population at 25M

#157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China is still a relatively poor country (1). I lived in Shanghai for a few years back, and even if you just go into the side streets a few blocks from the richest area in Shanghai (Pudong, Huangpu), you can see slums and sometimes dead people lying in the streets with no assistance. And if you go 10 minutes out of the richest areas, you have people living in hutongs and communist-style buildings with low level life…

>you can see slums and sometimes dead people lying in the streets with no assistance hahaha nice try anti China shill with your 2 hour old shill account, Shanghai isn't India or Africa. This guy obviously has never been to Shanghai. There are neither slums or dead people. Low skilled migrant workers just like mexicans back in the US sometimes live in rundown apartments stacked 10 deep but the government has recently…

Excuse me, I've seen many dead bodies in shanghai, lying out on the streets for everyone to see. One of the most memorable one is there was a guy laying face down lifeless, his legs covered in gangrene, about a block away from a busy metro station construction. He must have been there for days.

Re: Shanghai sets population at 25M

#158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>you can see slums and sometimes dead people lying in the streets with no assistance hahaha nice try anti China shill with your 2 hour old shill account, Shanghai isn't India or Africa. This guy obviously has never been to Shanghai. There are neither slums or dead people. Low skilled migrant workers just like mexicans back in the US sometimes live in rundown apartments stacked 10 deep but the government has recently…

Excuse me, I've seen many dead bodies in shanghai, lying out on the streets for everyone to see. One of the most memorable one is there was a guy laying face down lifeless, his legs covered in gangrene, about a block away from a busy metro station construction. He must have been there for days .

Sure thing bro, you seem to have unpleasant dreams.

Re: Shanghai sets population at 25M

#159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that the reason the poor move to city slums and accept bad housing, working conditions, services, and infrastructure is because the poor consider their lives improved by urban living. I think the choice isn't between bad urban conditions and good conditions somewhere else. The choice is between bad urban conditions and bad rural conditions. Bad urban conditions provide people with better economic opportunity…

> As demanding and dangerous as poorly regulated manufacturing workplaces can be, they tend to be no more demanding and no more dangerous than agricultural work. Sometimes changes in climate can also lead to agricultural work simply becoming impossible/unprofitable, thus forcing rural labor to move to the cities, looking for work which isn't impacted by the climate. At least that's what happened in Syria [0], the sad…

Ongoing automation of the agriculture economy in China is a much bigger displacement of labor than climate change. Without deep study it would be hard to even guess if climate change will be a net positive or negative for agricultural output in a country as large and diverse as China.

Some what disappointing to see the "climate change" meme come up so often as the cause for some badness in the world when it is, at best, tangentially related to the issue being discussed.

Re: Shanghai sets population at 25M

#160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem isn’t migration it’s clearly the conditions and wages they’re to allowed work for, as you admit. Free movement of human beings should be a human right. Restricting immigration is nothing more than descrimination. In China or the United States for that matter.

That's naive, the wages they're paid are what people are willing to pay them. Most are paid illegally so setting a minimum wage won't really help, and even if the minimum wage was followed, it surely wouldn't provide for a reasonable existence in an expensive major city which attracts migrants. If you raise the minimum wage high enough so that it provides for a liveable wage in a major city and are able to enforce it…

One reason migrants anywhere get paid less is not economics but exploitation: They have limited power, including legal rights and limited access to the legal system to enforce those rights. Unfortunately, others exploit them.

> If you raise the minimum wage high enough so that it provides for a liveable wage in a major city and are able to enforce it, then the amount of people willing to pay migrants for work will collapse and the migrants will stop coming to the city.

While I understand the theory, the reality in places that raise minimum wage is much more complex.

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