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Oracle sues Google over use of Java in Android

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Re: Oracle sues Google over use of Java in Android

#251

Post by [deleted] »

purple-people wrote: post #240
bad_user wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, GPLv3 is useless here. Oracle can sue for patents over any GPLv3 technology, and all GPLv3 says is that the company doing the suing can't distribute code under GPLv3. But since they own the copyrights of Java, they can always change its license and leave the rest of the world in dust.

Uhh, no. They would be violating the GPLv3 license under which they distributed the source. Changing the license only affects the next person acquiring the source. The people who acquired it under the GPLv3 license cannot have this retroactively revoked or relicensed. If Orcale sued those parties, they would be violating the terms of the license. In the least instance they shouldn't have been distributing the source…

[deleted]

Re: Oracle sues Google over use of Java in Android

#252

Post by vessenes »

WildUtah wrote: post #105
seldo wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks, it naively hadn't occurred to me that Android would be using a non-Sun JVM, and given what you've said it seems that would be a viable route for an IP lawsuit (though it still seems in pretty bad faith).

Dalvik would be better if Google had just licensed Oracle's Sun JVM or used the open source version. As an occasional Android developer I am constantly banging against the limitations and performance of Dalvik. It doesn't do memory management nearly as well as the JVM, and it handles dynamic dispatch and one-off closure hacks (local classes) slowly. It won't easily accept generated bytecodes. It has mysterious perfor…

There wasn't any cooperation available, unless Google wanted to pay megabucks for Java ME, and force their developer chain to do the same: Java ME was never open sourced.

Essentially, Sun said "We will give away Java, Open Source, as we planned to do. Oh, not mobile, because Nokia uses it and it makes us lots of money. Of course, we all understand reimplementing Java ME would be far too much work for any one company to do. Feel free to license."

Google said "Eh, we'll just write our own JVM that runs on phones, thanks. That's how we roll over here."

Now there are lawsuits, because Sun tried hard to make sure you had to pay if you wanted Java on mobile devices.

Re: Oracle sues Google over use of Java in Android

#253

Post by kj12345 »

gaius wrote: post #198
btilly wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like the sort of stuff that Smalltalk implementations were doing before Java existed. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-in-time_compilation#Histor... for more. (I wonder whether Sun's patents were filed for Self?)

sigh A patent isn't an idea. It's the specific method for implementing an idea. If there is a way to get the same end result using a completely different method, the patent doesn't apply.

A "method" which is not being acted out physically, but instead is in someone's head or written down on paper is a type of idea. So some ideas are patentable, others aren't. The mantra that ideas aren't patentable presumes some other category of thought completely apart from ideas. Besides, what could be more purely and precisely methodical than machine-readable source code, in this case Smalltalk source code?

Re: Oracle sues Google over use of Java in Android

#254

Post by el_chapitan »

tocomment wrote: post #236
tocomment wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's interesting. I wonder if Google could buy IBM and then have them drop the lawsuit?

I wasn't trying to make a joke. I figured Google would have a very high market valuation compared to IBM. But my point still stands, why can't Google buy a company that owns some patents that Oracle is currently infringing on?

Jonathan Schwartz had a great article about patents and IP where he relayed some stories about the stand offs between companies with regards to patents. Seems very relevant here: http://jonathanischwartz.wordpress.com/2010/03/09/good-artis...

Re: Oracle sues Google over use of Java in Android

#255

Post by colomon »

bigiain wrote: post #110
tzs wrote: post #10

Google should switch to C# and Mono. Besides giving them a better language and VM, it would cause the most amusing set of rants from the anti-Mono crowd. Win/win.

"Google Android: The worlds first Perl6 phone!"

Suspect parent was meant as a joke, but it does seem like this legal action might have interesting ramifications for Parrot. (Both positive and negative.)

Re: Oracle sues Google over use of Java in Android

#256

Post by spinchange »

wmf wrote: post #25
seldo wrote: post #6

Excuse the really really obvious question, but how can you sue somebody for intellectual property infringement on open-source software? Didn't you already give anybody the license to do what they wanted with it? If they've violated the license terms in some way, isn't that different from IP infringement?

It's important to understand that Android doesn't use Oracle's open-source OpenJDK. An argument could be made that Oracle licenses the necessary patents only for OpenJDK and not for alternate implementations such as Dalvik. An argument could be made that Oracle licenses patents only for JVMs that are TCK-compliant, which Dalvik isn't. An argument could be made that Oracle licenses patents for GPLed JVMs but not for A…

I know "great comment" comments are silly, especially in a vote-based comment system, but seriously, great comment. Very instructive.

Re: Oracle sues Google over use of Java in Android

#257

Post by arghnoname »

Can someone remind me why Google didn't buy Sun when it was on the market? The culture seems like it would have been a relatively good fit and their use of Java related technologies (obviously now) would have made ownership of those technologies useful.

Had they bought Sun and then sold off the hardware side of the business they would have bought a lot of solid engineers and IP.

Re: Oracle sues Google over use of Java in Android

#260

Post by el_chapitan »

squidsoup wrote: post #8
seldo wrote: post #6

Excuse the really really obvious question, but how can you sue somebody for intellectual property infringement on open-source software? Didn't you already give anybody the license to do what they wanted with it? If they've violated the license terms in some way, isn't that different from IP infringement?

I'm struggling to understand this as well - I would have thought OSS licensing and software patents would be incompatible.

I believe that was the purpose of the GPL3. You know, the one that nobody uses because it is too draconian.
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