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Oracle sues Google over use of Java in Android

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Re: Oracle sues Google over use of Java in Android

#191

Post by loup-vaillant »

jchonphoenix wrote: post #160

The most worrisome factor in this lawsuit is how this will impact java as a language and a platform. If Google loses this lawsuit, java as a language and platform could easily die. Many companies would refuse to use it, just to be on the safe side and avoid litigation from Oracle. Oracle probably doesn't realize the massive damage it has done to the java platform just by going forward with this suit. Due to the loomi…

If you like lambdas, you'd probably like F# better: lighter syntax, types are inferred, and it looks like it's quite well supported by Microsoft.

But of course, if you consider F#, you may want to use the more free and open Ocaml.

Re: Oracle sues Google over use of Java in Android

#192

Post by rodh257 »

tezza wrote: post #148
nostrademons wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More likely, they find a few dozen patents that they own that Oracle is infringing, and turn around and counter-sue.

I agree that counter suing is one tactic. Another one is that after all the denunciations and sabre-rattling, Google hand over a wad of cash to licence the technology and Oracle score a slice of Android sales. Merely the threat of future lawsuits... justified or not, could harm Android adoption, so Google may settle (after posturing and sabre-rattling of course) on that basis alone

Android is free though isn't it? they can have 100% of Google's Android sales in that case :)

Re: Oracle sues Google over use of Java in Android

#193

Post by _delirium »

btilly wrote: post #107
billmcneale wrote: post #100

The biggest issue for Oracle is that Sun's previous CEO publicly congratulated Google about Android: http://beust.com/weblog/2010/08/12/oracle-is-suing-google-ov... Good luck defending your trademark after the CEO declares it's not really interested in doing so.

Intellectual property divides into 3 fields with 3 different sets of rules. Anything you learn about how copyrights, trademarks and patents work is more likely than not to be wrong about the other two. You're thinking trademark law. This lawsuit is under patent law. It doesn't matter what Jonathan Schwartz publicly said.

It's not as strong as with trademark law, but patent law does have some notion of estoppel--- if you know someone is using a patent of yours, and publicly congratulate them for it, and then years later turn around and sue them, your job in pulling off the U-turn is at least a bit harder. Among other things, they can argue detrimental reliance on your public acquiescence to their usage.

Re: Oracle sues Google over use of Java in Android

#194

Post by bad_user »

technomancy wrote: post #89
noonespecial wrote: post #13

It just goes to show that whatever company-de-jour promises about enforcing the patents that they are granted today, all bets are off when they fall on hard times and are acquired tomorrow. Serious about openness? Skip the "patent and promise" dance and just release the damn thing BSD.

The BSD license would be useless here. Preventing this kind of thing is the whole point of the third revision of the GPL; to my knowledge there are no other software licenses that do this.

No, GPLv3 is useless here.

Oracle can sue for patents over any GPLv3 technology, and all GPLv3 says is that the company doing the suing can't distribute code under GPLv3.

But since they own the copyrights of Java, they can always change its license and leave the rest of the world in dust.

Re: Oracle sues Google over use of Java in Android

#195

Post by anigbrowl »

Interesting.

Please note, I'm not an attorney or expert on Java.

The complaint is quite vague overall, perhaps deliberately. It lists the various patents, says what they are, and alleges that Google infringed upon each one. It also suggests that Sun/Oracle owns heaps of Java source code which has been used by Google, thereby breaching copyright. Oh, and since I own an Android phone I too am infringing on their patents, but fortunately they lay the blame for this at Google's feet. Whew!

Nowhere in the complaint is there any explanation of what licensing obligations were applicable or which govern the distribution of Java. Nor is it clear when Oracle alleges this infringement began in relation to each patent, or why or how they consider it to be infringed upon by Android. The complaint mentions the Dalvik VM specifically.

Looking through the licensing information on the phone itself, there's a bunch of stuff from Sun under a 1993-4 license which is very short and confers the right to use, modify and distribute the software without reservation. Most of the rest is under the Apache Harmony license, and a sprinkling of others. Well, I suppose if google were deliberately infringing, they would hardly mention the fact in their licensing statements.

So where is the problem?

14. On information and belief, Google has been aware of Sun’s patent portfolio, including the patents at issue, since the middle of this decade, when Google hired certain former Sun Java engineers.

A good ZDnet article suggests the engineers in question may be 'Lars Bak, Robert Griesemer, and Frank Yellin, all former Sun employees who now work for Google on Java and Web browser technologies, and all of whom appear as inventors on one or more of the patents in question.'

http://www.zdnet.com/blog/burnette/oracle-uses-james-gosling...

Also (possibly, IMHO) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joshua_Bloch

I don't know what Oracles chances are. On the surface it looks like rather weak sauce, with some of the patents being questionable because of prior art...but like I said, that's an amateur perspective. Oracle appears to be saying the bare minimum necessary at this time. Google will likely move for a summary judgment of dismissal, denying that there is any substance to Oracle's claims, and at that point Oracle may have to make some more specific allegations.

Re: Oracle sues Google over use of Java in Android

#196

Post by iambvk »

Timothee wrote: post #83
gahahaha wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He is just trying to save /more/ children in Africa. http://online.wsj.com/article/NA_WSJ_PUB:SB10001424052748704... Larry Ellison is a saint! ... and an asshole.

The letter he wrote for the Giving Pledge website actually shows a bit of him being a saint and an asshole: http://givingpledge.org/#larry_ellison To whom it may concern, Many years ago, I put virtually all of my assets into a trust with the intent of giving away at least 95% of my wealth to charitable causes. I have already given hundreds of millions of dollars to medical research and education, and I will give bill…

I wonder how much did google give away till now...

Re: Oracle sues Google over use of Java in Android

#197

Post by bruceboughton »

loup-vaillant wrote: post #191
jchonphoenix wrote: post #160

The most worrisome factor in this lawsuit is how this will impact java as a language and a platform. If Google loses this lawsuit, java as a language and platform could easily die. Many companies would refuse to use it, just to be on the safe side and avoid litigation from Oracle. Oracle probably doesn't realize the massive damage it has done to the java platform just by going forward with this suit. Due to the loomi…

If you like lambdas, you'd probably like F# better: lighter syntax, types are inferred, and it looks like it's quite well supported by Microsoft. But of course, if you consider F#, you may want to use the more free and open Ocaml.

You can like lambdas without wanting to go fully functional... just like you can like objects without wanting to go fully object-oriented.

Re: Oracle sues Google over use of Java in Android

#198

Post by gaius »

btilly wrote: post #103
shasta wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, here's claim 1: In a computer system, a method for increasing the execution speed of virtual machine instructions, the method comprising: - inputting virtual machine instructions for a function; - compiling a portion of the function into at least one native machine instruction so that the function includes both virtual and native machine instruction; and - overwriting a selected virtual machine instruction of t…

It sounds like the sort of stuff that Smalltalk implementations were doing before Java existed. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-in-time_compilation#Histor... for more. (I wonder whether Sun's patents were filed for Self?)

sigh

A patent isn't an idea. It's the specific method for implementing an idea. If there is a way to get the same end result using a completely different method, the patent doesn't apply.

Re: Oracle sues Google over use of Java in Android

#199

Post by cracki »

jacquesm wrote: post #176
gojomo wrote: post #39

What an excellent occasion to try the homoglyph hoax attack on friends and enemies! (See http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1571984 .) http://www.google.com/search?q=οraclе Your search - οraclе - did not match any documents.

It seems to be the o and the e at the end. Homoglyphs were a bad idea. Single letter or word homoglyphs in ohterwise latin text ought to be highlit somehow to warn against tricks like that.

i just set the default encoding of my browser to latin1 and disabled auto-detection. it doesn't work most of the time because the browser doesn't have to detect anything because of encoding tags in the page code, but it's handy if i have suspicions.

now i see gibberish for everything i don't care about, including utf8 homoglyphs.

Re: Oracle sues Google over use of Java in Android

#200

Post by gaius »

bruceboughton wrote: post #197
loup-vaillant wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you like lambdas, you'd probably like F# better: lighter syntax, types are inferred, and it looks like it's quite well supported by Microsoft. But of course, if you consider F#, you may want to use the more free and open Ocaml.

You can like lambdas without wanting to go fully functional... just like you can like objects without wanting to go fully object-oriented.

Those are called structs ;-)
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