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Oracle sues Google over use of Java in Android

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Re: Oracle sues Google over use of Java in Android

#171

Post by houseabsolute »

tezza wrote: post #150
houseabsolute wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because Oracle doesn't own any patents on the implementation of relational databases that they couldn't also sue Google over . . . The most engineer-ish thing to do is a back of the envelope calculation: 1. Estimate how much it'd cost to fight the suit. 2. Estimate the probability of winning. 3. Estimate the damages if you lose. 4. Estimate Oracle's ask for licensing the patents. If (1 + 2 * 3) < 4, fight, else settl…

I agree with your analysis... another factor I guess is that Google will want to ensure that Oracle cannot repeat this trick whenever Oracle wants in the future (breach of license, not re-infringement). My work has had bad experiences with Oracle license chenanigans. Of course Google probably has better lawyers than my work does!

Oracle would not want to "kill the golden goose" as it were. Assuming Google is infringing, the lawsuit is probably just a tactic to get a greater amount of licensing fees out of them than they would have been willing to pay without compulsion. It does Oracle no good to completely kill off Android, so any fees will certainly not be large enough to make the ecosystem unprofitable for Google.

Re: Oracle sues Google over use of Java in Android

#172

Post by rayvega »

binaryfinery wrote: post #62
squidsoup wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By better language, do you mean better than Java? The JVM supports many other great languages like Ruby, Clojure and Scala. I'd love to see Google provide GWT support for Scala, but that's another issue :)

The JVM bytecode is shitty. It cannot support dynamic languages at the VM level (yet: http://jcp.org/en/jsr/detail?id=292 ), the support for the C# equivalent of structs has been pushed back, and that makes any kind of hardware acceleration painful. Then theres type erasure - a total hack to get generics. I think Oracle is being beyond stupid here. If anyone has the power to come up with a language and toolchain to m…

History will repeat itself. Sun sued Microsoft over their implementation of Java. In response, MS drops Java and creates its own language (C#), framework (.NET), and VM (CLR) which now solidly competes with Java in the enterprise software space.

If MS was able to accomplish all of that, then imagine what Google could create if they decided to drop Java altogether ('Go' language might be the preview.) That would be a huge win for the software industry while a big (long term) loss for Oracle as Java further wans in popularity.

(Hmm....if Oracle can sue Google over the non-Java VM they created for Android couldn't they sue MS for their "JVM-like" CLR? This is another reason why their patent lawsuit is so ridiculous.)

No matter how you slice it, Google has the advantage in the long run while patent trolls like Oracle have the most to lose in the long term.

Re: Oracle sues Google over use of Java in Android

#173

Post by [deleted] »

binaryfinery wrote: post #62
squidsoup wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By better language, do you mean better than Java? The JVM supports many other great languages like Ruby, Clojure and Scala. I'd love to see Google provide GWT support for Scala, but that's another issue :)

The JVM bytecode is shitty. It cannot support dynamic languages at the VM level (yet: http://jcp.org/en/jsr/detail?id=292 ), the support for the C# equivalent of structs has been pushed back, and that makes any kind of hardware acceleration painful. Then theres type erasure - a total hack to get generics. I think Oracle is being beyond stupid here. If anyone has the power to come up with a language and toolchain to m…

[deleted]

Re: Oracle sues Google over use of Java in Android

#174

Post by jemfinch »

pjscott wrote: post #121
Eliezer wrote: post #92

I like this headline because if we sent it back in time 30 years it wouldn't make any sense at all.

Looking over the front page, I wonder what the people thirty years ago would have made of some of the other headlines: "Making GitHub More Open: Git-backed Wikis" "Twitter Polling in the Cloud in 30s using PiCloud" or, my favorite: "Burning man defeats PayPal" (I envision something like the Biblical story of Jesus driving money-changers out of a temple, but this time, Jesus lights himself on fire first. It's very int…

> Looking over the front page, I wonder what the people thirty years ago would have made of some of the other headlines

People thirty years ago? Heck, I wonder what my in-laws would make of those headlines :)

Re: Oracle sues Google over use of Java in Android

#175

Post by zmmmmm »

chmike wrote: post #166
tezza wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" The million dollar question is why would anybody in their right mind do this?" A slice of Android sales revenue... Perhaps as high as US$1 per handset would be nice.

Isn't Android free ? The problem is more for mobile phone companies that may now have to pay a license for using it. This will hurt a lot.

It might not hurt too much if Oracle just asks for money. I don't think it's the "free-as-in-beer" quality that is crucial to Android - it's the freedom for carriers to do what they want with it that matters.

They scariest possibility would be if Oracle actually tries to exert some other kind of influence - force their own software or restrictions or branding onto Android (ugh!) - that would really scupper the whole thing. I have no idea if that is possible or not (someone please tell me it is not).

Re: Oracle sues Google over use of Java in Android

#176

Post by jacquesm »

gojomo wrote: post #39

What an excellent occasion to try the homoglyph hoax attack on friends and enemies! (See http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1571984 .) http://www.google.com/search?q=οraclе Your search - οraclе - did not match any documents.

It seems to be the o and the e at the end. Homoglyphs were a bad idea. Single letter or word homoglyphs in ohterwise latin text ought to be highlit somehow to warn against tricks like that.

Re: Oracle sues Google over use of Java in Android

#177

Post by lsc »

houseabsolute wrote: post #170
lsc wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ah, but reputation matters here... you don't want to have a reputation for being easy money for patent trolls. Additionally, as google doesn't seem to be a patent troll, it's probably also in their interest to set legal precedents that weaken software patents. I mean, obviously, this doesn't mean 'always fight' but it's another value you need to punch in to your equation, one weighing in on the 'fight' side. In my bu…

Maybe there is some space for a 3.1 step where you factor in the benefit from fighting even if you end up losing, but I doubt there is going to be one nearly as often as your VPS example.

in this case, they'd only get the benefit if they won; assuming that if they lost they'd have to pay the other guy's court expenses /and/ a license, it would make loosing more costly, but it would also make the win more valuable, possibly out of proportion to how much more costly it makes losing.

Re: Oracle sues Google over use of Java in Android

#178

Post by [deleted] »

houseabsolute wrote: post #170
lsc wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ah, but reputation matters here... you don't want to have a reputation for being easy money for patent trolls. Additionally, as google doesn't seem to be a patent troll, it's probably also in their interest to set legal precedents that weaken software patents. I mean, obviously, this doesn't mean 'always fight' but it's another value you need to punch in to your equation, one weighing in on the 'fight' side. In my bu…

Maybe there is some space for a 3.1 step where you factor in the benefit from fighting even if you end up losing, but I doubt there is going to be one nearly as often as your VPS example.

[deleted]

Re: Oracle sues Google over use of Java in Android

#179

Post by phaedrus »

stephenjudkins wrote: post #101

It seems like defending against software patent claims are a cost of doing anything interesting now days. Create a novel, popular platform or tool, and someone somewhere will probably sue you over infringing on their patents. Google can probably dig into its mountain of cash and come out OK, but the precedent is chilling to smaller companies. It's also ironic that it's Dalvik that got hit, given the amount of anti-Mi…

I'm reminded of a comment a Mono developer made about the hullabaloo over whether Mono is a Microsoft Trojan Horse:

"I can only imagine the C++ developers are laughing their heads off at us."

Re: Oracle sues Google over use of Java in Android

#180

Post by JoachimSchipper »

seldo wrote: post #151
nostrademons wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

MySQL? BerkeleyDB?

Well, Sun own MySQL. But the drop-in replacement MySQL engine makers (infobright, percona, etc) might be a little worried.

The comment you're replying to pointed out that Oracle owns MySQL (acquired with Sun) and BerkeleyDB (acquired with SleepyCat).
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