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UK Cops Want to Use AI to Spot Child Abuse But It Mistakes Desert Pics for Nudes

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Re: UK Cops Want to Use AI to Spot Child Abuse But It Mistakes Desert Pics for Nudes

#71

Post by jotm »

M2Ys4U wrote: post #61
jotm wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is extreme porn? I'm really skeptical of politicians that want to ban "extreme pornography" on the Internet yet let actual prostitution just kind of, slide under the radar. Surprisingly not many Brits are aware that you can get a couple of high end hookers who will do anything for a few hundred quid per hour, and it's legal. Lots of these "escorts" are barely legal age, as well. Maybe it's a ploy to get people o…

> What is extreme porn? According to Section 63(2) of the Criminal Justice and Immigration Act 2008: An “extreme pornographic image” is an image which is both— (a) pornographic, and (b) an extreme image. Hope that helps! At least, though, in subsection 7 and 7A they define "extreme", as well as providing a nice catch-all of "grossly offensive, disgusting or otherwise of an obscene character": (7) An image falls withi…

OK those make sense tbh, though there's a huge amount of porn that basically caters to those audiences yet is staged... I wonder if they deal with that.

Re: UK Cops Want to Use AI to Spot Child Abuse But It Mistakes Desert Pics for Nudes

#72

Post by gaius »

whathaschanged wrote: post #57
gaius wrote: post #45

The UK police are dealing with a scandal right now in that they tend to suppress electronic evidence proving a suspect is innocent and try to prosecute anyway. The last thing we should give them is another electronic capability. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/12/19/met-orders-review...

The UK police are dealing with a scandal where they supress evidence physical child rapists are guilty if they happen to be muslim.

"Men alleged to be part of a child-grooming ring in Rochdale were never brought to justice because the evidence of teenage victims was not pursued, according a former police officer"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21925205

Re: UK Cops Want to Use AI to Spot Child Abuse But It Mistakes Desert Pics for Nudes

#73

Post by [deleted] »

M2Ys4U wrote: post #63
bionoid wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have a link that explains the situation well, which is why I am [slowly] working on a documentary project to bring it to the public. > calling porn a "cult" seems like a stretch That is the general perception, but as I said initially, girls are indoctrinated and trained using advanced psychological manipulation, indistinguishable from what most people think a "cult" is. Everyone is free to believe that massiv…

>Everyone is free to believe that massive numbers of young girls just absolutely love the taste of cum, rimming, and so on. Nothing fishy is going on... Or they could be, you know, acting .

[deleted]

Re: UK Cops Want to Use AI to Spot Child Abuse But It Mistakes Desert Pics for Nudes

#74

Post by fragmede »

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #53

So, the Met wants to train image recognition AI to find child abuse images? I'd be surprised if there aren't some interesting ethical questions around this. To begin with, the way image recognition algorithms work -they learn from examples - to train an image recognition AI to identify images of child abuse you'd have to provide it with a substantial database of such images. I'm pretty sure that's illegal, although o…

The only thing new is that the child pornography pictures are being fed to an ML model. The police have been keeping and distribute photos of icky things for as long as pictures of murdered people has been useful as courtroom evidence, and Interpol and the FBI have kept a database of child pornography since the early days of microcomputers to track down rings of child pornographers.

As far as generating new kiddie porn, before there were ML models, there was Photoshop, and that first released in the 90's. That there are more advanced methods of generating child pornography is not interesting or new under the law (depending on your jurisdiction).

"Fun" fact: Facebook/Instagram/Snapchat have giant repositories of (tagged!) child pornography however before we get our pitchforks out, it's used to keep child pornography out of the system.

Unfortunately with current technology there's not really a realistic way around having the actual images; hashing only goes so far, and just like (performant) homomorphic encryption, if you were able to come up with a way to do this without actually needing the pictures, the world will beat a path to your door.

Re: UK Cops Want to Use AI to Spot Child Abuse But It Mistakes Desert Pics for Nudes

#75

Post by gamblor956 »

coding123 wrote: post #58
YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #53

So, the Met wants to train image recognition AI to find child abuse images? I'd be surprised if there aren't some interesting ethical questions around this. To begin with, the way image recognition algorithms work -they learn from examples - to train an image recognition AI to identify images of child abuse you'd have to provide it with a substantial database of such images. I'm pretty sure that's illegal, although o…

Law enforcement already has tons of child porn lying around used primarily to frame people. Of course similar to drug planting it is extremely hard to defend because no one wants to risk defending someone charged with that. There are exceptions and I'm not saying people like Jared from Subway aren't guilty. There are many many many lesser known individuals that are hushed up using child porn. So I'm basically saying…

You're wrong on literally all points, but why let the truth get in the way?

Law enforcement does collect images that have been traded. They do not use these to frame people, unless you are referring to the honeypot sites that they have taken over. They maintain these sites hoping that CP collectors will continue to download images of their own volition and that they can they trace the IPs to a real-world address.

There are many many many lesser known individuals that are hushed up using child porn.

Citation needed. This would the first I've heard of CP being used to frame people by law enforcement. It happens, though very rarely, that some people try to frame innocent individuals...

So I'm basically saying there is no ethical problem (from their perspective) because feds/cops already deal with this all the time and plant this on people like drugs.

So I'm basically saying there is no ethical problem because feds/cops already deal with this all the time, but they don't frame people. They let the idiots hang themselves. And by the way, my source is that I used to defend people like this when I was a public defender. What's your source?

Re: UK Cops Want to Use AI to Spot Child Abuse But It Mistakes Desert Pics for Nudes

#76

Post by [deleted] »

ravenstine wrote: post #60
YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #53

So, the Met wants to train image recognition AI to find child abuse images? I'd be surprised if there aren't some interesting ethical questions around this. To begin with, the way image recognition algorithms work -they learn from examples - to train an image recognition AI to identify images of child abuse you'd have to provide it with a substantial database of such images. I'm pretty sure that's illegal, although o…

Who wants to be the developer to train a neural network on child porn? You couldn't pay me all the money in the world twice over to take that job.

[deleted]

Re: UK Cops Want to Use AI to Spot Child Abuse But It Mistakes Desert Pics for Nudes

#77

Post by [deleted] »

jotm wrote: post #54
DanBC wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The pornography was extreme. It was found a few weeks before laws were introduced that made it unlawful. This claim has been made many times, in print, and Green has denied it but not used UK defamation law to prevent the claims being made or to force corrections to be printed.

What is extreme porn? I'm really skeptical of politicians that want to ban "extreme pornography" on the Internet yet let actual prostitution just kind of, slide under the radar. Surprisingly not many Brits are aware that you can get a couple of high end hookers who will do anything for a few hundred quid per hour, and it's legal. Lots of these "escorts" are barely legal age, as well. Maybe it's a ploy to get people o…

[deleted]

Re: UK Cops Want to Use AI to Spot Child Abuse But It Mistakes Desert Pics for Nudes

#78

Post by stordoff »

nitwit005 wrote: post #7

> With the help of Silicon Valley providers, AI could be trained to detect abusive images "within two-three years", Mr Stokes said. If the goal is to get something so high quality that the police won't ever have to look at it, I doubt it. You have Google and Facebook employing people to deal with user reports about this stuff, as well as ad companies manually checking websites.

I doubt that's the goal (or at least if it is, it is shortsighted). There's still a benefit (to the police) of being able to say "Here's 100,000 images, of which we strongly suspect some percentage are abusive. Show me those images which are _probably_ illegal", even if just in time spent.

Re: UK Cops Want to Use AI to Spot Child Abuse But It Mistakes Desert Pics for Nudes

#79

Post by stordoff »

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #53

So, the Met wants to train image recognition AI to find child abuse images? I'd be surprised if there aren't some interesting ethical questions around this. To begin with, the way image recognition algorithms work -they learn from examples - to train an image recognition AI to identify images of child abuse you'd have to provide it with a substantial database of such images. I'm pretty sure that's illegal, although o…

> But, they still have to keep around a big database of child abuse images - and update it regularly, to do this job.

IIRC, they already do this, for tracking the distribution and source of such images.

> It's kind of... icky.

No disagreement there.

> their models can be used to generate new images of the kind

Tools like Photoshop can already do this, and likely to a higher quality than running a conv. net in reverse (so to speak), so I doubt that's a big concern.

Re: UK Cops Want to Use AI to Spot Child Abuse But It Mistakes Desert Pics for Nudes

#80

Post by stordoff »

jotm wrote: post #71
M2Ys4U wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What is extreme porn? According to Section 63(2) of the Criminal Justice and Immigration Act 2008: An “extreme pornographic image” is an image which is both— (a) pornographic, and (b) an extreme image. Hope that helps! At least, though, in subsection 7 and 7A they define "extreme", as well as providing a nice catch-all of "grossly offensive, disgusting or otherwise of an obscene character": (7) An image falls withi…

OK those make sense tbh, though there's a huge amount of porn that basically caters to those audiences yet is staged... I wonder if they deal with that.

That, IIRC, is the reason for the "a reasonable person looking at the image would think that the persons were real" clause. If it looks real, it is treated the same even if it is staged.
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