At Vice, Cutting-Edge Media and Allegations of Old-School Sexual Harassment • Hacker News Board

Re: At Vice, Cutting-Edge Media and Allegations of Old-School Sexual Harassment

#71

Post by freeflight » Sat, Dec 23, 2017, 10:16 PM UTC

daeken wrote: post #48

freeflight wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That incident happened after a company event, isn't that considered private time? I mean, she would have had to agree to go with the co-worker, during their off-hours, in the first place and he might have interpreted her willingness to go along as a signal of mutual interest (romantic, sexual) in each other? That isn't meant as an excuse for such creepy, if not straight up criminal, behavior. But as somebody with som…

There's a very good rule here: unless you have done action X on at least 3 occasions with a given person, ask them before you do it. "May I hug/kiss/grope/whatever you?" If you've already done this on several occasions in the past, sure, use your discretion and interpret body language or subtle signs. Otherwise, ask. Period. No exceptions.

That isn't a very good standard to go by because many people don't instantly voice their concerns about behaviors making them uncomfortable, some even prefer to voice such concerns only to third parties when the "offender" is not around.

That's why you can end up repeating mistakes over and over again and annoy/intimidating people you don't even realize you are annoying/intimidating, even tho that wasn't your intention at all.

> use your discretion and interpret body language or subtle signs

Making it sound so simple disregards the fact that this isn't natural to everybody and it's not really an easy skill to learn when it's not natural to you, especially not on your own.

Sure you can ask about all the things that everybody else considers "normal", but do you really want to stick out even more as the "oddball" than you already feel for being insecure about such seemingly "normal" things?

Re: At Vice, Cutting-Edge Media and Allegations of Old-School Sexual Harassment

#72

Post by Disruptive_Dave » Sat, Dec 23, 2017, 10:17 PM UTC

torpfactory wrote: post #65

BlanketApple wrote: post #8

I'd heard rumors about this at Vice. Glad to see it getting some air. Stories like this are important, because I think the traditional view of sexual harassment is that it happens at JP Morgan, or Exxon, or "stodgy" old companies. People don't think that it can happen at their cool, hip workplace where everyone's woke. But, power is power. Incidentally, and totally based off of a gut reaction and not data: I wonder i…

I think, in general, that it is totally fine to have company outings, but propositions of any sort should be avoided. You're certainly asking each individual to have self discipline, but in my mind this is a very reasonable expectation. As a rule, everyone should probably avoid relationships at work. If you do decide to have a relationship, do it right and start extremely slowly (i.e. coffee shop date, etc). Feel thi…

On the other hand, think about how much time you spend at work. How close your interactions are with others. We - human beings - are jammed into little 4-walled boxes for the majority of our days with a bunch of people we already have something huge in common with...and told not to get too close with them. It's pretty wild, the whole scenario.

Re: At Vice, Cutting-Edge Media and Allegations of Old-School Sexual Harassment

#73

Post by BlanketApple » Sat, Dec 23, 2017, 10:21 PM UTC

torpfactory wrote: post #65

BlanketApple wrote: post #8

I'd heard rumors about this at Vice. Glad to see it getting some air. Stories like this are important, because I think the traditional view of sexual harassment is that it happens at JP Morgan, or Exxon, or "stodgy" old companies. People don't think that it can happen at their cool, hip workplace where everyone's woke. But, power is power. Incidentally, and totally based off of a gut reaction and not data: I wonder i…

I think, in general, that it is totally fine to have company outings, but propositions of any sort should be avoided. You're certainly asking each individual to have self discipline, but in my mind this is a very reasonable expectation. As a rule, everyone should probably avoid relationships at work. If you do decide to have a relationship, do it right and start extremely slowly (i.e. coffee shop date, etc). Feel thi…

> I think, in general, that it is totally fine to have company outings, but propositions of any sort should be avoided.

It's more that I wonder if this is just another nail in the coffin. Again, totally not based on data of any sort, but it seems like people are less and less enthused about company outings and this might just be one more easy justification for not attending the holiday party.

Re: At Vice, Cutting-Edge Media and Allegations of Old-School Sexual Harassment

#74

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Dec 23, 2017, 10:24 PM UTC

Disruptive_Dave wrote: post #72

torpfactory wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think, in general, that it is totally fine to have company outings, but propositions of any sort should be avoided. You're certainly asking each individual to have self discipline, but in my mind this is a very reasonable expectation. As a rule, everyone should probably avoid relationships at work. If you do decide to have a relationship, do it right and start extremely slowly (i.e. coffee shop date, etc). Feel thi…

On the other hand, think about how much time you spend at work. How close your interactions are with others. We - human beings - are jammed into little 4-walled boxes for the majority of our days with a bunch of people we already have something huge in common with...and told not to get too close with them. It's pretty wild, the whole scenario.

[deleted]

Re: At Vice, Cutting-Edge Media and Allegations of Old-School Sexual Harassment

#75

Post by jessaustin » Sat, Dec 23, 2017, 10:24 PM UTC

electricEmu wrote: post #47

dominotw wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If the mainstream media wanted to destroy Vice once and for all, now seems like an appropriate opportunity. So I guess its well accepted now that "mainstream media" is not merely there to report what is going on but have active agendas to shape the world according to their wishes. It a weapon of destruction.

> So I guess its well accepted now that "mainstream media" is not merely there to report what is going on but have active agendas to shape the world according to their wishes. It a weapon of destruction. I'm not sure what you're angling for, but they're all corporations with market interests. The NYT itsself authored the article. Your comment appears to be reaching pretty hard to throw in that MSM comment.

Wat? That was a quote of parent. Besides, Vice would have to try pretty hard to get more mainstream than it already is. Is TFA not discussing Matt-Lauer-style remote-kidnapping locks?

Re: At Vice, Cutting-Edge Media and Allegations of Old-School Sexual Harassment

#76

Post by WalterBright » Sat, Dec 23, 2017, 10:25 PM UTC

torpfactory wrote: post #65

BlanketApple wrote: post #8

I'd heard rumors about this at Vice. Glad to see it getting some air. Stories like this are important, because I think the traditional view of sexual harassment is that it happens at JP Morgan, or Exxon, or "stodgy" old companies. People don't think that it can happen at their cool, hip workplace where everyone's woke. But, power is power. Incidentally, and totally based off of a gut reaction and not data: I wonder i…

I think, in general, that it is totally fine to have company outings, but propositions of any sort should be avoided. You're certainly asking each individual to have self discipline, but in my mind this is a very reasonable expectation. As a rule, everyone should probably avoid relationships at work. If you do decide to have a relationship, do it right and start extremely slowly (i.e. coffee shop date, etc). Feel thi…

> everyone should probably avoid relationships at work

That's pretty unrealistic. I recall a statistic that 40% of marriages evolve from office romances. People get into relationships with people they are around.

Re: At Vice, Cutting-Edge Media and Allegations of Old-School Sexual Harassment

#77

Post by lemagedurage » Sat, Dec 23, 2017, 10:26 PM UTC

pwaai wrote: post #22

provost wrote: post #11

> In 2003 Vice reached a $25,000 settlement with the freelance writer Jessica Hopper. The deal involved defamation claims tied to an interview she did with the rapper Murs that was published in the February 2003 issue of the magazine, according to a copy of the agreement viewed by The Times. During the interview, Murs asked Ms. Hopper if he could have sex with her. She said no and included that answer in her article.…

I hope that she can get the appropriate justice. $25,000 is a pittance compared to the psychological trauma from having to relive the trauma over and over from being discussed. I mean, fuck man, why even become a lawyer if you are going to achieve such poor results? But I guess when you can't afford the same lawyers a large corporation can, its going to be an uphill battle. Especially now when the US courts is trendi…

If you donate $25K to the EFF, HN can tell everyone I agreed on sex. Odd, isn't it?

Re: At Vice, Cutting-Edge Media and Allegations of Old-School Sexual Harassment

#78

Post by rayiner » Sat, Dec 23, 2017, 10:28 PM UTC

Disruptive_Dave wrote: post #72

torpfactory wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think, in general, that it is totally fine to have company outings, but propositions of any sort should be avoided. You're certainly asking each individual to have self discipline, but in my mind this is a very reasonable expectation. As a rule, everyone should probably avoid relationships at work. If you do decide to have a relationship, do it right and start extremely slowly (i.e. coffee shop date, etc). Feel thi…

On the other hand, think about how much time you spend at work. How close your interactions are with others. We - human beings - are jammed into little 4-walled boxes for the majority of our days with a bunch of people we already have something huge in common with...and told not to get too close with them. It's pretty wild, the whole scenario.

As a married guy I find this line of thinking hard to understand. “How are we supposed to work so closely with these people without getting ‘too close?’” Uh, I’m not allowed to solicit a date in any context: work, the grocery store, cafes, etc. Somehow I manage, and so do most married people.

Re: At Vice, Cutting-Edge Media and Allegations of Old-School Sexual Harassment

#79

Post by Pica_soO » Sat, Dec 23, 2017, 10:33 PM UTC

torpfactory wrote: post #65

BlanketApple wrote: post #8

I'd heard rumors about this at Vice. Glad to see it getting some air. Stories like this are important, because I think the traditional view of sexual harassment is that it happens at JP Morgan, or Exxon, or "stodgy" old companies. People don't think that it can happen at their cool, hip workplace where everyone's woke. But, power is power. Incidentally, and totally based off of a gut reaction and not data: I wonder i…

I think, in general, that it is totally fine to have company outings, but propositions of any sort should be avoided. You're certainly asking each individual to have self discipline, but in my mind this is a very reasonable expectation. As a rule, everyone should probably avoid relationships at work. If you do decide to have a relationship, do it right and start extremely slowly (i.e. coffee shop date, etc). Feel thi…

The problem will be solved by having company outings, but simply declare them privat and no longer invite colleagues with 'trouble' potential. You cant lawsuit people for there private lifes. Works for politicians already. Result of this will be a even more closed club.

Re: At Vice, Cutting-Edge Media and Allegations of Old-School Sexual Harassment

#80

Post by BlanketApple » Sat, Dec 23, 2017, 10:36 PM UTC

Disruptive_Dave wrote: post #72

torpfactory wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think, in general, that it is totally fine to have company outings, but propositions of any sort should be avoided. You're certainly asking each individual to have self discipline, but in my mind this is a very reasonable expectation. As a rule, everyone should probably avoid relationships at work. If you do decide to have a relationship, do it right and start extremely slowly (i.e. coffee shop date, etc). Feel thi…

On the other hand, think about how much time you spend at work. How close your interactions are with others. We - human beings - are jammed into little 4-walled boxes for the majority of our days with a bunch of people we already have something huge in common with...and told not to get too close with them. It's pretty wild, the whole scenario.

> told not to get too close with them

Well, I don't think that's true really. Nobody cares if you're close friends with your co-workers. Many co-workers are close friends.

But, I get that you meant romantic relationships.

The problem of course being that there's so much negative baggage that often accompanies unsuccessful or unrequited romantic interest, all of it detrimental to the company. For example: If a subordinate rejects a superior's advances, and there's even a whiff of unfair treatment (being passed over for promotion, for example), the subordinate has a legitimate grievance that they didn't before.

The woman in the article, for example, that rejected her boss's advances and then was later let go for "poor performance": Maybe she really was performing extremely poorly! And maybe the boss really was totally over it immediately. But she now has a pretty solid case that it was retaliation, forever.

It just puts the company in a position where they have to be hyper-vigilant about monitoring things like this, and it's a huge waste of resources. Regardless of how valuable you are to the company, you're almost certainly not worth the huge headache that you just caused.