Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents • Hacker News Board

Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#181

Post by lostlogin » Sat, Dec 23, 2017, 7:18 PM UTC

osdiab wrote: post #82

mutteraloo wrote: post #35

Lest we forget, this is still the same government that mowed down 10,000 innocent lives, that still runs China today. They've gotten better at hiding behind marketing, propaganda, and strong arming other countries, but they're still ruled by a small, powerful group of elders that control every aspects of Chinese people's lives. It's sad that we keep feeding this dangerous psychopath which threatens democracy and free…

I’m not Chinese, but I did live there for a bit. If you haven’t already I suggest you take the time to get acquainted with Chinese culture, modern history, and modern Chinese lifestyle. In recent times there have been significant human tragedies there for sure, but given the historical context they feared to relive, and the incredible gains they’ve made in recent years, you can think of their actions as real large sc…

>the ends justify the means

> lots of morally reprehensible stuff that cannot be excused.

Which is it?

Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#182

Post by mutteraloo » Sat, Dec 23, 2017, 7:23 PM UTC

yongjik wrote: post #180

mutteraloo wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you do realize that China is the only reason North Korea is still operating, right? The North Korea that threatens your home country and brutalizes many of your relatives in North Korea?

You do realize North Korea "not operating" means either a civil war between military factions with access to nuclear weapons, or South Korean/American forces dragged into a military operation right up the nose of China? So you would rather prefer that my relatives die in fire? See, this is what I mean when I say I object to such reasoning. People are so bold, they're always willing to sacrifice other people's lives t…

You do realize that there are other scenarios, such as North Korea launching nuclear strike into Silicon Valley or New York? Would you prefer that? or North Korea failing quietly like the collapse of USSR?

Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#183

Post by jk2323 » Sat, Dec 23, 2017, 7:23 PM UTC

mutteraloo wrote: post #35

Lest we forget, this is still the same government that mowed down 10,000 innocent lives, that still runs China today. They've gotten better at hiding behind marketing, propaganda, and strong arming other countries, but they're still ruled by a small, powerful group of elders that control every aspects of Chinese people's lives. It's sad that we keep feeding this dangerous psychopath which threatens democracy and free…

"down 10,000 innocent lives"

I doubt this number. And let's not forget that they let them protesting for some time. An highly unusual event in China. Problems occurred when protests did not stop.

"threatens democracy and freedom worldwide." China is not totally undemocratic and I doubt that democracy is necessarily the best solution at all times and for all states.

"This psychopath will eventually cause harm to a few countries (Taiwan, South Korea)"

South Korea?

On the other hand I am sure the people in Syria, Libya and Iraq were happy about the US bombings. Remember "highway of death" in Iraq?

"when said and done, maybe enable North Korea to strike a few nuclear missiles into Los Angeles or Tokyo, who knows."

North Korea is a buffer sate for both, China and Russia. China has NO interest in a war in North Korea.

By the way, North Korea. The Soviet Union fought an existential war against Germany and lost 10% of their population. This war DEFINED the Soviet Union. In Europe the second world war was basically a Soviet-German war (9 out of 10 German soldiers that died, died on the Eastern Frontier).

This being said, this is NOTHING compared to the war that North Korea fought: https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2017/12/11/state-fear...

Yes, North Koreans are paranoid. They may have reasons to be.

Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#184

Post by piva00 » Sat, Dec 23, 2017, 7:25 PM UTC

cletus wrote: post #161

tw04 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not going to stand here and say China doesn't have a TON of human rights issues. But on what planet can you say "this is the same government that mowed down 10,000 people"? You might as well say the current government in the US is the "Same government that mowed down innocent college students at Kent State". It's actually not the same government. Some parts of it are significantly better, some parts of it are sig…

Let me try: there has been no acknowledgment, moral reckoning, mea culpa, apology, investigation or national discussion about this by those in power in 1989, nor by any of their successors to date . In effect the argument is being made that without any of the above successive governments have been complicit during or after the fact.

Because a lot of people from that time are still alive. It's not politically interesting to go against the military, even more if the commanders came from that era.

Unfortunately, they will only recognise and apologise after that generation is long gone, that is the reality of politics.

Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#185

Post by dforrestwilson » Sat, Dec 23, 2017, 7:34 PM UTC

yongjik wrote: post #180

mutteraloo wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you do realize that China is the only reason North Korea is still operating, right? The North Korea that threatens your home country and brutalizes many of your relatives in North Korea?

You do realize North Korea "not operating" means either a civil war between military factions with access to nuclear weapons, or South Korean/American forces dragged into a military operation right up the nose of China? So you would rather prefer that my relatives die in fire? See, this is what I mean when I say I object to such reasoning. People are so bold, they're always willing to sacrifice other people's lives t…

Yet the U.S. is at risk right now, simply for supporting South Korea militarily in both past and present.

Alliances are double-edged swords. I'm curious, what would be your perspective if the U.S. decided that South Korea was no longer worth defending and pulled it's troops back to Guam and Okinawa?

Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#186

Post by __name__ » Sat, Dec 23, 2017, 7:34 PM UTC

mutteraloo wrote: post #177

yongjik wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I object to this line of thoughts. I hope I don't sound like a China apologist: the Chinese government has done a terrible crime, and it's a shame that not enough Chinese people are demanding justice, and sooner or later they will have to look back and recognize what happened, hopefully sooner rather than later. However, packaging that as "the threat of China" is a self-serving narrative that will harm people. I gues…

you do realize that China is the only reason North Korea is still operating, right? The North Korea that threatens your home country and brutalizes many of your relatives in North Korea?

What about Russia?

Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#187

Post by gok » Sat, Dec 23, 2017, 7:36 PM UTC

aaefiikmnnnr wrote: post #21

hsrada wrote: post #10

A day to Remember (10 Min) : https://vimeo.com/44078865 Liu Wei, a Chinese artist goes around the streets of Beijing on June 4th asking people ‘What Day is it today?’ hoping for an answer on the lines of ‘Today’s the 16th anniversary of the Tiananmen Square Massacre’ but what he gets instead is a lot of ‘I don’t know’'s from the people whose faces clearly say otherwise.

I asked my graduate school classmates who were from China and got similar result. Very few of them said they heard of the event after they got to the U.S. and Googled it, but couldn't believe what they read since none of it appears in their life before they left China.

That's a different reaction. In 2002, people still remembered what happened but were unable to say it out loud due to fear (hence the facial expressions).

In 2017, the people old enough to be grad students truly don't know about it because the Party has successfully erased it from public discord within the mainland.

Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#188

Post by desireco42 » Sat, Dec 23, 2017, 7:37 PM UTC

And they would know because they were there... oh wait, they were far away but they always have fingers in every unrest in the world.

Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#189

Post by yongjik » Sat, Dec 23, 2017, 7:38 PM UTC

mutteraloo wrote: post #182

yongjik wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do realize North Korea "not operating" means either a civil war between military factions with access to nuclear weapons, or South Korean/American forces dragged into a military operation right up the nose of China? So you would rather prefer that my relatives die in fire? See, this is what I mean when I say I object to such reasoning. People are so bold, they're always willing to sacrifice other people's lives t…

You do realize that there are other scenarios, such as North Korea launching nuclear strike into Silicon Valley or New York? Would you prefer that? or North Korea failing quietly like the collapse of USSR?

You've been hoodwinked by clickbait media. North Korea won't strike Silicon Valley or New York, ever. If you want to worry about that, you might as well worry about China or Russia striking New York: after all, there's a chance Putin will be alive after nuclear war, but there's zero chance Kim Jong Un will be alive after nuking America.

But you can't sell prospect of a nuclear war against China, because people have iPhones made in China, so they know it's absurd: why would China want a nuclear war? A threat has to be believable to sell to people. So we talk about North Korea. Nobody in the US has bought anything from North Korea: they are a dark, evil, and mysterious people, and it's easy to believe they can be also suicidal.

(Yes, the North Korean regime is evil: they're so evil that they make China look like boy scouts. But they aren't suicidal.)

Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#190

Post by refurb » Sat, Dec 23, 2017, 7:43 PM UTC

aaefiikmnnnr wrote: post #21

hsrada wrote: post #10

A day to Remember (10 Min) : https://vimeo.com/44078865 Liu Wei, a Chinese artist goes around the streets of Beijing on June 4th asking people ‘What Day is it today?’ hoping for an answer on the lines of ‘Today’s the 16th anniversary of the Tiananmen Square Massacre’ but what he gets instead is a lot of ‘I don’t know’'s from the people whose faces clearly say otherwise.

I asked my graduate school classmates who were from China and got similar result. Very few of them said they heard of the event after they got to the U.S. and Googled it, but couldn't believe what they read since none of it appears in their life before they left China.

This may be a one-off thing, but I remember playing an online trivial game with some Chinese post-docs. They had no idea who Chung Kai-Shek was! It was almost as if pre-CCP history didn't exist.