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Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#161

Post by cletus »

tw04 wrote: post #58
mutteraloo wrote: post #35

Lest we forget, this is still the same government that mowed down 10,000 innocent lives, that still runs China today. They've gotten better at hiding behind marketing, propaganda, and strong arming other countries, but they're still ruled by a small, powerful group of elders that control every aspects of Chinese people's lives. It's sad that we keep feeding this dangerous psychopath which threatens democracy and free…

I'm not going to stand here and say China doesn't have a TON of human rights issues. But on what planet can you say "this is the same government that mowed down 10,000 people"? You might as well say the current government in the US is the "Same government that mowed down innocent college students at Kent State". It's actually not the same government. Some parts of it are significantly better, some parts of it are sig…

Let me try: there has been no acknowledgment, moral reckoning, mea culpa, apology, investigation or national discussion about this by those in power in 1989, nor by any of their successors to date.

In effect the argument is being made that without any of the above successive governments have been complicit during or after the fact.

Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#162

Post by pwaai »

bostik wrote: post #129
pwaai wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this shows the underlying naivety in American optimism in Chinese markets. Their sole purpose is to learn, take as much as they can possibly get away, turn around and create entire industries overnight by creating a domestic bubble shielding it from foreign competition. It's similar to how South Korea propped up it's economy in the 70s, by imposing high tariffs on imports and restricting consumer choice to on…

> Their sole purpose is to learn, take as much as they can possibly get away, turn around and create entire industries overnight by creating a domestic bubble shielding it from foreign competition. Which, according to Bad Samaritans, is the rational choice of any still developing country.[0] This of course doesn't absolve China (or the US for that matter) of their abhorrent actions in any other realm. 0: https://en.w…

> In 2008, Ministry of National Defense of South Korea release a list of 23 'seditious' books including "Bad Samaritans". The books on the list cannot be read or kept on bases under military regulations. The ministry argued it may cause misunderstanding among the readers about the free market economy. The army argued that the books contains some information that related to antigovernment and anti-Americanism.[2]

HAHA! Now I must read this book.

Any book banned by a government that doesn't incite terrorism outright is worth a read imho.

It's hard to argue with the results though. South Korea was pretty much a third world country but state directed infrastructure building in key productions like steel, shipyard building, all had roots of building up a deterrent against North Korea.

Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#163

Post by lostlogin »

marcosdumay wrote: post #128
bufordsharkley wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some things are not cut-and-dry. Some are. Something like abolitionism has been justified by history as mere common sense, and an absolutely necessary component of a humane society. I'm curious how China currently views Sun Yat-sen's "Three Principles of the People"[0], one of which is Democracy. Does his philosophy attract any attention today? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Principles_of_the_People

> Something like abolitionism has been justified by history as mere common sense, and an absolutely necessary component of a humane society. If taxation by a non-representative government isn't as much common sense as abolitionism, it's only because of a huge amount of propaganda. It is not even much fundamentally different from slavery.

>It is not even much fundamentally different from slavery.

Yes it is.

Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#164

Post by YeGoblynQueenne »

mutteraloo wrote: post #159
YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #151

Great discussion we have here, but I only see two people identifying as Chinese in the comments and that dearth of local opinion does not help convince me that we know what we're talking about.

here, let me show you why - Man in China sentenced to five years' jail for running VPN https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/dec/22/man-in-china-s... - France couple in China unreachable after Liu Xiaobo tribute - BBC News http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-42454865 - China Continues Hunting Down Liu Xiaobo Commemorators, Rounding Up Dissident Writer https://chinachange.org/2017/12/22/china-continues-hunting-d…

Those are risks for people living in mainland China, or expecting to go back there. Anyone with Chinese heritage would do, for the purpose of the local perspective I would like to see.

Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#165

Post by weerd »

ralmidani wrote: post #69
zizek23 wrote: post #45

In a previous naive world intoxicated by dreams of global citizenry and humanism it would be easy to get sanctimonious and posture about evil. But cultural divides are real and are not going away. And these kind of events and stories simply become opportunities to target other countries weaknesses, reassert a jingoistic sense of superiority and perpetuate existing comfort zones. Or there would be protests daily in we…

> Or there would be protests daily in western capitals about the sheer unimaginable scale of destruction, devastation and millions of families destroyed and lives lost in the middle east starting from Iraq to Libya and now Syria done purely to further geo-political and financial interests. My parents and wife were born in Syria. I lived and studied there for 5 years, and spent some time in then-liberated Eastern Alep…

How was Obama supposed to follow through? How was the US in the way?

Sorry for derailing the thread here, but this is interesting.

Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#166

Post by nate_meurer »

mutteraloo wrote: post #111
Dolores12 wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> - China puts a freeze on burning coal, leaving millions of families shivering in the cold http://shanghaiist.com/2017/12/05/coal-ban.php Love your arguments like this. How about the ban allows everyone to breath fresh air during winter instead of byproducts of coal burning? Omg, few families is going to be shivers. Many more will thank its government for that step. You are welcome to visit Beijing to experience con…

Or you know, the government could just stop the polluting factories from polluting

Well, that's sort of what they did by shuttering the dirtiest coal-fired generators. It's kind of a hard spot they're in -- lethal smog vs. electricity shortages.

Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#167

Post by lostlogin »

LV-426 wrote: post #60
mutteraloo wrote: post #35

Lest we forget, this is still the same government that mowed down 10,000 innocent lives, that still runs China today. They've gotten better at hiding behind marketing, propaganda, and strong arming other countries, but they're still ruled by a small, powerful group of elders that control every aspects of Chinese people's lives. It's sad that we keep feeding this dangerous psychopath which threatens democracy and free…

Leaving Tiananmen Square aside - since nobody can disagree it was a terrible, indefensible crime - can you explain further how you think China is threatening democracy and freedom "worldwide"? They're certainly a threat in Hong Kong, where they have a degree of control and influence, but how and where else? While they lay claim to Taiwan, what harm do you think they are going to cause to South Korea and why would the…

The influence of Chinese money in the political system is currently being debated in New Zealand and Australia. A Chinese MP, Yang, who has a somewhat murky past relationship with a Chinese intelligence agency which he hid somehow ended up on foreign affairs, defence and trade parliamentary select committees.

In the last week lightly veiled comments have been made in parliament over where National Party funding came from, with the implication being that China was behind it. It’s early in the piece but there is plenty enough here to drag this out for ages.

Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#168

Post by paulmd »

nate_meurer wrote: post #155
YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> That dichotomy was never made. And yet, t is always at the forefront of the subtext of any discussion of China- the communist regime that's so unlike our Western democracies because it's communist and we're democratic. As to governments killing their own citizens- the US, the leader of the free world, is one of the few nations besides China that still regularly uses the death penalty. And they consider it perfectl…

IMO the death penalty is a disgrace, but it's not comparable to things like Tianamen Square. Not even remotely. The death penalty is administered within a legal framework that is designed (nominally at least) to be transparent and afford due process. The implementation is sometimes flawed to the point of absurdity, but the American people largely know this and are free to criticize and debate it without fear of punis…

> The death penalty is administered within a legal framework that is designed (nominally at least) to be transparent and afford due process

I'm sure China's system has some high-minded "nominal" goals too. Why should we give the US a pass for its practical outcomes while holding China to a higher standard?

Remember, for all that talk about how horrible China is, the US imprisons many times more people per-capita.

(I tend to agree with you that Chinese practical outcomes are worse in various intangible ways, but I'm not willing to write off US prison populations like that, it's a blemish and a stain and it's such a massive problem that people are unable to address it on any sort of a political level. Which is basically the same problem as in China, just with a different set of social strictures. In both cases it comes down to a basic sense of "shou ga nai" - nothing can be done.)

Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#169

Post by lostlogin »

vermontdevil wrote: post #131
glenstein wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China is projecting their influence across the world in myriad ways. They are experimenting with soft power in Australia, with money and increasingly combative diplomacy. There are increasingly significant trade agreements and loans with Latin America. They are striking deals across Africa for oil and minerals, and have a permanent naval installation in Djibouti, and seem comfortable supporting antidemocratic regimes…

Right from America’s playbook

Perhaps. It’s bold to target such a strong American ally. Australia is more deeply in the US camp than most.

Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#170

Post by dengnan »

tw04 wrote: post #58
mutteraloo wrote: post #35

Lest we forget, this is still the same government that mowed down 10,000 innocent lives, that still runs China today. They've gotten better at hiding behind marketing, propaganda, and strong arming other countries, but they're still ruled by a small, powerful group of elders that control every aspects of Chinese people's lives. It's sad that we keep feeding this dangerous psychopath which threatens democracy and free…

I'm not going to stand here and say China doesn't have a TON of human rights issues. But on what planet can you say "this is the same government that mowed down 10,000 people"? You might as well say the current government in the US is the "Same government that mowed down innocent college students at Kent State". It's actually not the same government. Some parts of it are significantly better, some parts of it are sig…

It is the same government because you will still be caught for discussing the TianAnMen square event in public. It is still a taboo topic since 1989 and nothing on this matter changed so far.
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