Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents • Hacker News Board

Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#101

Post by glenstein » Sat, Dec 23, 2017, 4:22 PM UTC

keiferski wrote: post #96

yesenadam wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, so to take just one example, say 50 or so Tiananmens died in the latest US appalling invasion/massacre of Iraq. So that was 50x as horrible and unforgiveable, and should 'forever be held against the USA' in the same essentially horrified way? Something comparable happened every few years of the last century. I get the feeling most people reading this will hold more against me for saying this, than against the US…

I don’t disagree with you, but I think the fundamental difference here is that American invasions are a) acknowledged b) considered fairly negatively by virtually everyone, even by those who initially supported them. It is a publically discussed issue with multiple acceptable opinions which range from “expensive quagmire” to “massive human rights violation.” Tiannamen Square, conversely, was covered up, erased from h…

Right. And the reason we keep historical events like these in mind is so that we learn lessons from them, understand clearly that they are wrong, so that we don't reproduce the political and intellectual climates that allowed them to happen.

Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#102

Post by aaron-lebo » Sat, Dec 23, 2017, 4:24 PM UTC

osdiab wrote: post #82

mutteraloo wrote: post #35

Lest we forget, this is still the same government that mowed down 10,000 innocent lives, that still runs China today. They've gotten better at hiding behind marketing, propaganda, and strong arming other countries, but they're still ruled by a small, powerful group of elders that control every aspects of Chinese people's lives. It's sad that we keep feeding this dangerous psychopath which threatens democracy and free…

I’m not Chinese, but I did live there for a bit. If you haven’t already I suggest you take the time to get acquainted with Chinese culture, modern history, and modern Chinese lifestyle. In recent times there have been significant human tragedies there for sure, but given the historical context they feared to relive, and the incredible gains they’ve made in recent years, you can think of their actions as real large sc…

but to assume that China is some kind of giant hellish labor camp, and that our frankly ineffective and destructive forms of Western democracy are the only true answers to the world’s problems, is short sighted

That dichotomy was never made. The answer isn't today's ineffective democracies, but it is much closer to those than it is to governments which kill their own citizens to maintain power.

It always reads like whataboutism to say "but what about their mistakes"? In the 1930s there were plenty of cheerleaders for the USSR who made just as much progress at great human cost. You're aware of the sins of the West because a free press broadcasts them. What is it that the Chinese government won't let the world know about?

Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#103

Post by intro-b » Sat, Dec 23, 2017, 4:25 PM UTC

schuke wrote: post #47

candiodari wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The last one. There's no stopping these activites in Hong Kong. (for the moment) It is becoming very clear however, that a serious crackdown from Beijing is coming. Not on this particular incident, but in general on the political freedom in Hong Kong. It is becoming undeniable China demanded Hong Kong back in order to destroy it. But when it will arrive. Good question.

This is not exactly correct. HK has pretty solid rule of law and has a Basic Law that guarantees freedom of speech. Beijing cannot interfere directly and activists face completely different consequences after speaking out. That's why Beijing can only abduct a few booksellers from HK and had to deal with the messy fallout.

I'm not sure if a few journalistic op-eds and moderate pieces of international condemnation count as "messy fallout." It seems like it was a successful, measured attempt at probing the limits of what they could get away with.

Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#104

Post by intro-b » Sat, Dec 23, 2017, 4:28 PM UTC

mongol wrote: post #11

It is strange that such a relatively recent event has so big uncertainty in the historical records.

I honestly wonder what will become of historical archive records of events that happened in the 2010's and beyond - where the reach of the internet facilitates for the massive diffusion and storage of recorded information while, at the same time, allowing for its dilution, manipulation, alteration.

Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#105

Post by rorykoehler » Sat, Dec 23, 2017, 4:29 PM UTC

mutteraloo wrote: post #80

LV-426 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Leaving Tiananmen Square aside - since nobody can disagree it was a terrible, indefensible crime - can you explain further how you think China is threatening democracy and freedom "worldwide"? They're certainly a threat in Hong Kong, where they have a degree of control and influence, but how and where else? While they lay claim to Taiwan, what harm do you think they are going to cause to South Korea and why would the…

they prop up dictatorships in Iran, Pakistan, North Korea, Burma, Zimbabwe, Sudan, Venezuela

America and the UK have a track record of propping up plenty of dictatorships too which is fairly odd for supposed democratic ideologues.

Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#106

Post by dghf » Sat, Dec 23, 2017, 4:29 PM UTC

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #79

dghf wrote: post #32

This bit confused me: > China bans all activists' commemorations and highly regulates online discussion of the incident, including censoring criticism. But it is marked annually by activists elsewhere in the world, particularly in Hong Kong and Taiwan. [Emphasis added.] Hong Kong is part of China, albeit as a special administrative region. So does the ban not apply in HK? Or does it apply in theory, but in practice i…

Hong Kong is not China under the two systems policy, hence why flights between the mainland and HK are considered international. Until recently, the laws were completely separate with the communists basically not interfering with legal aspects of HK society. Then they started abducting booksellers and prosecuting human rights activists, it’s safe to say that the two system policy is winding down quickly.

> Hong Kong is not China under the two systems policy

Isn't the full name of that policy "one country, two systems"?

Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#107

Post by glenstein » Sat, Dec 23, 2017, 4:31 PM UTC

jbooth wrote: post #100

glenstein wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a meaningful sense, you can say the Republican party is largely the same today as it was during the Contract With America, and the Democratic Party is largely the party of New Deal programs. Sameness here refers to ideological continuity rather than literal individuals being the same.

That's not what the person was saying, though. They were saying something much more simplistic. To your point, I'd say all 3 parties (D, R and CCP) have had slow and continuous ideological drift. All 3 are unrecognizable compared to 1989.

I think you're right that all three parties have been subject to a certain degree of drift. However, applying that back to the original point (is the current regime the same one that did Tiananmen), to me that's an argument that, for the most part, this is the same regime. And if the original commenter wasn't arguing about a continuity in ideology or personnel, then I'm not sure what they were arguing.

Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#108

Post by Fricken » Sat, Dec 23, 2017, 4:32 PM UTC

glenstein wrote: post #88

Fricken wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of the people involved in the decision to use violence against the Tiananmen square protesters are still in power. Who is it exactly that we should never forgive forever ? And where are we going to find the energy to hold this grudge along with all the other unforgivable acts throughout history given that we're already so poor, exhausted, distracted and confused?

>Who is it exactly that we should never forgive forever? For starters, whoever decides to delete references to Tiananmen from the Chinese internet, and the surrounding bureaucratic system that permits (or probably demands) it to happen. Whoever orders the media to omit reference to it every anniversary. Whoever continues to order that parents and/or spouses of the victims are placed under house arrest or removed from…

We should forgive. It's not an easy thing to do. The notion of forgiving was a revolutionary idea 2000 years ago, and in spite of lying at the bedrock of western morality, it's still a revolutionary idea today.

The regime in China also brought 650 million people out of extreme poverty in span of a generation. Somewhat unprecedented in world history, and definitely not something that gets dredged up time and time again to reinforce a distorted narrative. Rip the bandaid off that one and there's no wound underneath to pick at :(

Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#109

Post by intro-b » Sat, Dec 23, 2017, 4:33 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #28

hux_ wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup in contrast the American regime has about 1000x [1] the death toll but at least those people weren't bulldozed and it didn't make you and me feel too bad. Calling the other side evil is easy. Spotting hypocrisy is easy. Doing something about hyprocisy is much harder. It involves admitting to ourselves that all of us are capable of doing dumb shit. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_war_crimes

The difference is that we're trying to do something about it. Kids learn about many of the bad things America did (slavery, extermination of the native Americans, Vietnam war atrocities, nuking Hiroshima and Nagasaki, etc.). They're taking down civil war monuments all over the country. The same will happen with Columbus soon--Los Angeles has already renamed Columbus Day in favor of the indigenous people he exterminat…

Exactly - part of America's heritage of a free, unusually aggressive, and intellectually combative free press (on both sides of the political spectrum) is that criticism of our government, history, and society is widely studied and disseminated, both domestically and abroad. Knowledge of American human rights injustices, ranging from slavery to Guantanamo Bay, is promoted, shared, taught in schools.

Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#110

Post by jbooth » Sat, Dec 23, 2017, 4:34 PM UTC

glenstein wrote: post #107

jbooth wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not what the person was saying, though. They were saying something much more simplistic. To your point, I'd say all 3 parties (D, R and CCP) have had slow and continuous ideological drift. All 3 are unrecognizable compared to 1989.

I think you're right that all three parties have been subject to a certain degree of drift. However, applying that back to the original point (is the current regime the same one that did Tiananmen), to me that's an argument that, for the most part , this is the same regime. And if the original commenter wasn't arguing about a continuity in ideology or personnel, then I'm not sure what they were arguing.

It's like saying Hollande and Chirac are both part of the 5th Republic regime. Technically true but not indicative of anything and probably a red herring.