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Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#91

Post by seanmcdirmid »

igravious wrote: post #18

I wouldn't normally quote Wikipedia at length but … “Other estimates Unofficial estimates of the death toll have usually been higher than government figures, and go as high as 10,454.[2] Nicholas D. Kristof, then Beijing bureau chief for The New York Times wrote on June 21 that "it seems plausible that about a dozen soldiers and policemen were killed, along with 400 to 800 civilians."[1] US ambassador James Lilley sa…

The big problem is that we will just never know. An official formal investigation wasn’t allowed then and isn’t allowed today. As with everything else censored in china, what is left is rumor, hearsay, fuzzy truth, etc... that is the tragedy of censorship and not some CIA plot to discredit china. The Chinese government makes their own bed here.

Most of the deaths occurred throughout the city as the people rioted (because who the hell likes having the military in their city), few deaths happened in the square itself, few of the deaths were actually PKU students, most of whom had gone back to campus before the real shit show began (you can find many in the tech industry today, though they don’t reveal that they were involved easily).

China back then lacked riot police, they lacked any form of non-lethal crowd control capabilities. Then you had confusion in the army, soldiers who didn’t load their weapons getting killed, then civilians getting mowed down by other units in retubution.

I honestly think that if the government went to find an accurate account of the event, they would find many mistakes made, many tragedies occurred, but they wouldn’t lose the confidence of the people. That they don’t bother just shows how far they have to go.

Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#92

Post by rqs »

bufordsharkley wrote: post #62
LV-426 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Leaving Tiananmen Square aside - since nobody can disagree it was a terrible, indefensible crime - can you explain further how you think China is threatening democracy and freedom "worldwide"? They're certainly a threat in Hong Kong, where they have a degree of control and influence, but how and where else? While they lay claim to Taiwan, what harm do you think they are going to cause to South Korea and why would the…

I don't claim to be an expert on any of this, but it's pretty clear that China is unwilling to deny trade with North Korea, effectively propping up the Kim regime. Kim is engaging in increasingly dangerous provocations (admittedly provoked by the fact that the United States is still fighting the Korean War).

Just that?

Chinese here. I could say, if our government proves capitalism can be very well integrated and become more productive in an authoritarianism society, then that is a really bad news for democracy.

On the other hand though, after watching many Fox News clips on Youtube, I don't think you guys are doing very well on democracy, especially the people in the US.

Democracy is much harder to maintain than authoritarianism. It's very easy to get hijacked, especially the world is full of liars now days.

I'm not saying you should abort democracy, instead, you guys should be grateful for what you have, and be careful don't lose it, because if you did, you probably won't get another one for free.

Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#93

Post by Dolores12 »

mutteraloo wrote: post #90
glenstein wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a serious problem with our own (US) culture's ability to think clearly about the problem posed by Chinese authoritarianism in the 21st century. I would attribute the problem to our tendency for centrism, both-sideism, and probably to the just-world hypothesis. People are tempted to bury it in a larger narrative of global complexity, thinking that treating it like a trick question is evidence of sophistication…

Or maybe you're just under their marketing and propaganda. here are some things the authoritarian government did just this year - China puts a freeze on burning coal, leaving millions of families shivering in the cold http://shanghaiist.com/2017/12/05/coal-ban.php - China Blowing Major Bubbles In 2017 https://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2016/12/19/china-bubb... - In locked-down Xinjiang, China is tracking kitchen…

> - China puts a freeze on burning coal, leaving millions of families shivering in the cold http://shanghaiist.com/2017/12/05/coal-ban.php

Love your arguments like this. How about the ban allows everyone to breath fresh air during winter instead of byproducts of coal burning? Omg, few families is going to be shivers. Many more will thank its government for that step. You are welcome to visit Beijing to experience constant smog yourself. I highly doubt you want your children to live in such environment.

Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#94

Post by aaron-lebo »

jdavis703 wrote: post #56
Dolores12 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China wouldn't become as what it is today if they didn't do it. There could not be economic growth during political instability. Life of a billion+ people is now better and in hindsight i guess it was worth it.

This is a point many forget when talking about China. People bring up Tiananmen Square and the one child policy to talk about how evil China is. And don't get me wrong, to a certain extent both actions were wrong. But the U.S. had its own bloody civil war where the country killed hundreds of thousands of it's former citizens, not to mention the ways in which land was stolen from indigenous people. These violent actio…

It's not very interesting to compare what the US was doing 160 years ago as justifications for why China still acts the way it does.

A civil war is very different than a massacre of innocent protesters.

Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#96

Post by keiferski »

yesenadam wrote: post #72
glenstein wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think whataboutism, or exhortations to appreciate the complexity of global politics carry more value than the basic, straightforward observation that what happened at Tiananmen was horrible and unforgiveable, and should forever be held against China. People don't have the energy to protest everything, because we're poor, exhausted, distracted, and yes, often confused and hypocritical. It doesn't mean the obse…

OK, so to take just one example, say 50 or so Tiananmens died in the latest US appalling invasion/massacre of Iraq. So that was 50x as horrible and unforgiveable, and should 'forever be held against the USA' in the same essentially horrified way? Something comparable happened every few years of the last century. I get the feeling most people reading this will hold more against me for saying this, than against the US…

I don’t disagree with you, but I think the fundamental difference here is that American invasions are a) acknowledged b) considered fairly negatively by virtually everyone, even by those who initially supported them. It is a publically discussed issue with multiple acceptable opinions which range from “expensive quagmire” to “massive human rights violation.”

Tiannamen Square, conversely, was covered up, erased from history and is essentially unknown or uncared about by the majority of the Chinese population.

Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#97

Post by glenstein »

mutteraloo wrote: post #90
glenstein wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a serious problem with our own (US) culture's ability to think clearly about the problem posed by Chinese authoritarianism in the 21st century. I would attribute the problem to our tendency for centrism, both-sideism, and probably to the just-world hypothesis. People are tempted to bury it in a larger narrative of global complexity, thinking that treating it like a trick question is evidence of sophistication…

Or maybe you're just under their marketing and propaganda. here are some things the authoritarian government did just this year - China puts a freeze on burning coal, leaving millions of families shivering in the cold http://shanghaiist.com/2017/12/05/coal-ban.php - China Blowing Major Bubbles In 2017 https://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2016/12/19/china-bubb... - In locked-down Xinjiang, China is tracking kitchen…

I think you misunderstood my comment. I'm saying the U.S. has a cultural problem preventing it from confronting the very real authoritarian excesses of China. I think your articles are excellent evidence of those excesses and I agree with you about the problems posed by their marketing and propaganda.

Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#98

Post by baybal2 »

tanilama wrote: post #81
LV-426 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Leaving Tiananmen Square aside - since nobody can disagree it was a terrible, indefensible crime - can you explain further how you think China is threatening democracy and freedom "worldwide"? They're certainly a threat in Hong Kong, where they have a degree of control and influence, but how and where else? While they lay claim to Taiwan, what harm do you think they are going to cause to South Korea and why would the…

China represents an existential crisis for some by itself, as a country ignores many fundamental pillars of western society, which have been theorized for half a century to offer an explanation for its own success, yet it so far has achieved much more than expected to be. Although I think China needs to credit much of its success to western ideas, but it doesn't accept all of them, it takes what it needs and rejects…

China needs to attribute its advancement to 3 generations of technocrat administrations, nothing else.

When a man with brains is on the top, big things do happen.

Now there is Xi, a semiliterate * who spent his youth as a pig rearer. Not a bright talent he is.

Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#99

Post by rdtsc »

From what I understand the govt there made an implicit pact with the people basically to allow some free market liberalization, letting Western companies in and such in exchange for being able to sweep this massacre under the rug and pretend it didn't happen.

Crushing people into pies, then bulldozing them down and then washing what's left into sewers is hard to forget though. Add another 10k to the list tens of millions of victims of Communism.

Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#100

Post by jbooth »

glenstein wrote: post #89
tw04 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good point, whereas in America the Republican and Democratic parties have since been dismantled and replaced... Yang Shangkun must have had one heck of an influence if he was able to dictate who would be president of the country 15 years after his death... Of course Yang was forced out of the party in 1993 (the last time he had any influence), but don't let history and facts get in your way.

In a meaningful sense, you can say the Republican party is largely the same today as it was during the Contract With America, and the Democratic Party is largely the party of New Deal programs. Sameness here refers to ideological continuity rather than literal individuals being the same.

That's not what the person was saying, though. They were saying something much more simplistic.

To your point, I'd say all 3 parties (D, R and CCP) have had slow and continuous ideological drift. All 3 are unrecognizable compared to 1989.

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