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Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#61

Post by glenstein »

mutteraloo wrote: post #35

Lest we forget, this is still the same government that mowed down 10,000 innocent lives, that still runs China today. They've gotten better at hiding behind marketing, propaganda, and strong arming other countries, but they're still ruled by a small, powerful group of elders that control every aspects of Chinese people's lives. It's sad that we keep feeding this dangerous psychopath which threatens democracy and free…

There's a serious problem with our own (US) culture's ability to think clearly about the problem posed by Chinese authoritarianism in the 21st century. I would attribute the problem to our tendency for centrism, both-sideism, and probably to the just-world hypothesis.

People are tempted to bury it in a larger narrative of global complexity, thinking that treating it like a trick question is evidence of sophistication. But what if it's not a trick question?

Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#62

Post by bufordsharkley »

LV-426 wrote: post #60
mutteraloo wrote: post #35

Lest we forget, this is still the same government that mowed down 10,000 innocent lives, that still runs China today. They've gotten better at hiding behind marketing, propaganda, and strong arming other countries, but they're still ruled by a small, powerful group of elders that control every aspects of Chinese people's lives. It's sad that we keep feeding this dangerous psychopath which threatens democracy and free…

Leaving Tiananmen Square aside - since nobody can disagree it was a terrible, indefensible crime - can you explain further how you think China is threatening democracy and freedom "worldwide"? They're certainly a threat in Hong Kong, where they have a degree of control and influence, but how and where else? While they lay claim to Taiwan, what harm do you think they are going to cause to South Korea and why would the…

I don't claim to be an expert on any of this, but it's pretty clear that China is unwilling to deny trade with North Korea, effectively propping up the Kim regime. Kim is engaging in increasingly dangerous provocations (admittedly provoked by the fact that the United States is still fighting the Korean War).

Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#63

Post by rayiner »

zizek23 wrote: post #45

In a previous naive world intoxicated by dreams of global citizenry and humanism it would be easy to get sanctimonious and posture about evil. But cultural divides are real and are not going away. And these kind of events and stories simply become opportunities to target other countries weaknesses, reassert a jingoistic sense of superiority and perpetuate existing comfort zones. Or there would be protests daily in we…

Globalization is going to happen thanks to technology. But we get to decide what terms it happens on. Recollecting these sorts of events can be opportunities for asserting jingoistic sense of superiority. Or it can be an opportunity for encouraging and shaming everyone towards a just, humanist moral framework.

My family comes from Bangladesh. In the 1970s, Bangladesh declared independence from Pakistan, and enshrined principles like secularism into its constitution. But in the 1990s, Islam was made the official religion, women were forced to don head coverings, etc. Today, Islamists are killing journalists who espouse the same secularist principles the country was founded on. As a Bangladeshi-American, I want Americans to criticize these things! It pains me when (often well-intentioned, but misguided) people apologize for and accommodate these things. It's a slap in the face of people in Bangladesh who are fighting for a more just society.

That is not to say I don't want Americans to feel shame for the bad things America did. But, at least on the east coast, at least, I grew up hearing about all the evils of slavery and the genocide of indigenous people. We can try to help the world move forward without forgetting that we also have things in our history for which we need to feel shame. I think Americans broadly recognize that.

Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#64

Post by mark_edward »

mutteraloo wrote: post #50
zizek23 wrote: post #45

In a previous naive world intoxicated by dreams of global citizenry and humanism it would be easy to get sanctimonious and posture about evil. But cultural divides are real and are not going away. And these kind of events and stories simply become opportunities to target other countries weaknesses, reassert a jingoistic sense of superiority and perpetuate existing comfort zones. Or there would be protests daily in we…

There's a very easy way anyone can start fighting against a brutal regime like this: Stop buying stuff from China. Just stop. Support local made.

Better not do anything with computers then. China is completely integrated in global supply chains, what you want is probably impossible at this point without giving up whole swathes of industry

Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#65

Post by bufordsharkley »

glenstein wrote: post #61
mutteraloo wrote: post #35

Lest we forget, this is still the same government that mowed down 10,000 innocent lives, that still runs China today. They've gotten better at hiding behind marketing, propaganda, and strong arming other countries, but they're still ruled by a small, powerful group of elders that control every aspects of Chinese people's lives. It's sad that we keep feeding this dangerous psychopath which threatens democracy and free…

There's a serious problem with our own (US) culture's ability to think clearly about the problem posed by Chinese authoritarianism in the 21st century. I would attribute the problem to our tendency for centrism, both-sideism, and probably to the just-world hypothesis. People are tempted to bury it in a larger narrative of global complexity, thinking that treating it like a trick question is evidence of sophistication…

Some things are not cut-and-dry. Some are. Something like abolitionism has been justified by history as mere common sense, and an absolutely necessary component of a humane society.

I'm curious how China currently views Sun Yat-sen's "Three Principles of the People"[0], one of which is Democracy. Does his philosophy attract any attention today?

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Principles_of_the_People

Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#66

Post by Fricken »

glenstein wrote: post #49
zizek23 wrote: post #45

In a previous naive world intoxicated by dreams of global citizenry and humanism it would be easy to get sanctimonious and posture about evil. But cultural divides are real and are not going away. And these kind of events and stories simply become opportunities to target other countries weaknesses, reassert a jingoistic sense of superiority and perpetuate existing comfort zones. Or there would be protests daily in we…

I don't think whataboutism, or exhortations to appreciate the complexity of global politics carry more value than the basic, straightforward observation that what happened at Tiananmen was horrible and unforgiveable, and should forever be held against China. People don't have the energy to protest everything, because we're poor, exhausted, distracted, and yes, often confused and hypocritical. It doesn't mean the obse…

None of the people involved in the decision to use violence against the Tiananmen square protesters are still in power. Who is it exactly that we should never forgive forever? And where are we going to find the energy to hold this grudge along with all the other unforgivable acts throughout history given that we're already so poor, exhausted, distracted and confused?

Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#67

Post by pwaai »

mutteraloo wrote: post #31
tomlock wrote: post #2

I wonder if Altman bought this up when he was in China.

Sam Altman loves China; he'll ignore everything bad about it except the (certain) libertarian aspects (which doesn't conflict with the government) EDIT: whoever modded me down, take a look at http://blog.samaltman.com/china or https://techcrunch.com/video/sam-altman-of-yc-china-remains-...

I think this shows the underlying naivety in American optimism in Chinese markets.

Their sole purpose is to learn, take as much as they can possibly get away, turn around and create entire industries overnight by creating a domestic bubble shielding it from foreign competition.

It's similar to how South Korea propped up it's economy in the 70s, by imposing high tariffs on imports and restricting consumer choice to only domestically produced imitations by a state bankrolled conglomerate. At one point I believe Samsung even sold pirated copies of SNES games according to allegations in a 90s magazine. Japanese consoles were harder to get than PC, hence the proliferation of broadband internet leading to other side effects (actually Son Masayoshi advised the Korean administration back in the late 90s to go broadband early as possible).

I'd say that we are likely to hear more "honeymoon" stories from Sam, just like the thousands of like minded hopefuls that came to China and have left empty handed.

....but prove us all wrong by being the first American to make his billions and be allowed to keep it under the nose of Communist Party of China.

Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#68

Post by lozenge »

tw04 wrote: post #58
mutteraloo wrote: post #35

Lest we forget, this is still the same government that mowed down 10,000 innocent lives, that still runs China today. They've gotten better at hiding behind marketing, propaganda, and strong arming other countries, but they're still ruled by a small, powerful group of elders that control every aspects of Chinese people's lives. It's sad that we keep feeding this dangerous psychopath which threatens democracy and free…

I'm not going to stand here and say China doesn't have a TON of human rights issues. But on what planet can you say "this is the same government that mowed down 10,000 people"? You might as well say the current government in the US is the "Same government that mowed down innocent college students at Kent State". It's actually not the same government. Some parts of it are significantly better, some parts of it are sig…

It is the same government. Those in power at the time chose who would succeed them, and so on to this day.

Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#69

Post by ralmidani »

zizek23 wrote: post #45

In a previous naive world intoxicated by dreams of global citizenry and humanism it would be easy to get sanctimonious and posture about evil. But cultural divides are real and are not going away. And these kind of events and stories simply become opportunities to target other countries weaknesses, reassert a jingoistic sense of superiority and perpetuate existing comfort zones. Or there would be protests daily in we…

> Or there would be protests daily in western capitals about the sheer unimaginable scale of destruction, devastation and millions of families destroyed and lives lost in the middle east starting from Iraq to Libya and now Syria done purely to further geo-political and financial interests.

My parents and wife were born in Syria. I lived and studied there for 5 years, and spent some time in then-liberated Eastern Aleppo in 2013.

I, and most Syrians I know, despise Obama not because he said Assad should step down; we despise him for not following through, or at least getting out of the way and letting regional players help Syrians get rid of Assad, and kick out Iran's sectarian militias.

Western powers are responsible for a lot of horror and misery around the world. But unlike Iraq in 2003, Libya and Syria in 2011 experienced genuine popular uprisings. Most of the death and destruction was caused not by the West, but by Gaddafi and Assad.

Despite what Noam Chomsky seems to believe, the West is not the source of all evil in the world.

Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#70

Post by greggarious »

duncanawoods wrote: post #15
votepaunchy wrote: post #4

What did they do with all the bodies? "Students linked arms but were mown down including soldiers. APCs then ran over bodies time and time again to make 'pie' and remains collected by bulldozer. Remains incinerated and then hosed down drains.“

This is a particularly political event so reports from both sides need to be treated with scepticism. It doesn't sound terribly plausible as a disposal method to me. Not something I would believe without more sources / evidence.

>This is a particularly political event so reports from both sides need to be treated with scepticism.

So basically, you don't like these facts so we must be skeptical of them?

These were not two hostile countries in a war of whataboutism like the US and USSR.

China ≠ USSR - this was long after the Sino-Soviet split and by the late 80s the UK and China had good relations.

The Sino-British Joint Declaration (which would return Hong Kong to China) was signed in 1984, and Queen Elizabeth made a visit in 1986.

Also, a photo released in 2009 of "Tank Man" from another angle clearly shows a bulldozer:

https://lens.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/06/04/behind-the-scenes-...

Larger image (direct link): https://static01.nyt.com/packages/flash/photo/Lens-Single-As...

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