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Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#41

Post by jbooth »

fastball wrote: post #34
hux_ wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup in contrast the American regime has about 1000x [1] the death toll but at least those people weren't bulldozed and it didn't make you and me feel too bad. Calling the other side evil is easy. Spotting hypocrisy is easy. Doing something about hyprocisy is much harder. It involves admitting to ourselves that all of us are capable of doing dumb shit. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_war_crimes

A couple things to unpack here: Firstly, I'm not sure we're reading the same article, but by my summary count, the total death toll for all combined US war crimes detailed in that article isn't much more than 10,000. Next, the veracity of some of those claims is questionable at best. Finally, it should be noted that the Tiananmen Square protests, were, in fact, protests. This was not an action against civilians durin…

You ever see the shock and awe videos of Baghdad? That our government approvingly worked with cable news to make sure everyone saw it? For an operation very much not endorsed by the UN or international community?

Good thing that's not a war crime, though.

Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#42

Post by ryanmarsh »

jbooth wrote: post #41
fastball wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A couple things to unpack here: Firstly, I'm not sure we're reading the same article, but by my summary count, the total death toll for all combined US war crimes detailed in that article isn't much more than 10,000. Next, the veracity of some of those claims is questionable at best. Finally, it should be noted that the Tiananmen Square protests, were, in fact, protests. This was not an action against civilians durin…

You ever see the shock and awe videos of Baghdad? That our government approvingly worked with cable news to make sure everyone saw it? For an operation very much not endorsed by the UN or international community? Good thing that's not a war crime, though.

Shock and awe was a brief bombing campaign that hit military and administrative buildings late at night when they were empty. I saw the buildings. They were not apartment blocks. If anyone died in that campaign it was purely by accident.

Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#43

Post by ceejayoz »

jbooth wrote: post #41
fastball wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A couple things to unpack here: Firstly, I'm not sure we're reading the same article, but by my summary count, the total death toll for all combined US war crimes detailed in that article isn't much more than 10,000. Next, the veracity of some of those claims is questionable at best. Finally, it should be noted that the Tiananmen Square protests, were, in fact, protests. This was not an action against civilians durin…

You ever see the shock and awe videos of Baghdad? That our government approvingly worked with cable news to make sure everyone saw it? For an operation very much not endorsed by the UN or international community? Good thing that's not a war crime, though.

> You ever see the shock and awe videos of Baghdad?

The ones using precision munitions on generally evacuated government buildings?

You're really going to try comparing that to massacring unarmed protesters?

Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#44

Post by kchoudhu »

ringaroundthetx wrote: post #22
nailer wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it really? Would like to know more about what current generations think.

What I find most illuminating is how the current generation’s thoughts are so dramatically different than the Chinese-American’s whose parents left/escaped In the states we have alot of Cantonese speaking people with a disdain for the party and the outcome, masquarading their opinion and obsolete language as relevant and other Americans treat it as canonical My experience with mainlanders is complacency and contentme…

> obsolete language

Huh?

Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#45

Post by zizek23 »

In a previous naive world intoxicated by dreams of global citizenry and humanism it would be easy to get sanctimonious and posture about evil.

But cultural divides are real and are not going away. And these kind of events and stories simply become opportunities to target other countries weaknesses, reassert a jingoistic sense of superiority and perpetuate existing comfort zones.

Or there would be protests daily in western capitals about the sheer unimaginable scale of destruction, devastation and millions of families destroyed and lives lost in the middle east starting from Iraq to Libya and now Syria done purely to further geo-political and financial interests.

But that is handwaved away as 'necessary' somehow. The fact is people don't even care about the poor and suffering in their own cities and countries, so how can they care about an unknown people in another part of the world? It's posturing, China's problems will be only be fixed by those chinese who truly care for their people and country.

Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#46

Post by jbooth »

ceejayoz wrote: post #43
jbooth wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You ever see the shock and awe videos of Baghdad? That our government approvingly worked with cable news to make sure everyone saw it? For an operation very much not endorsed by the UN or international community? Good thing that's not a war crime, though.

> You ever see the shock and awe videos of Baghdad? The ones using precision munitions on generally evacuated government buildings? You're really going to try comparing that to massacring unarmed protesters?

Yeah, those. Watch the video and tell me how bloodless it was. Or how it's not a massacre.

I'm not defending a thing about Tiananmen square, I'm just marvelling at the power of nationalism to excuse anything.

Bunch of snakes in suits with American flag pins declare a war for no reason, knowing that hundreds of thousands will die, but it's all Legitimate State Behavior. I'm sure it's a huge comfort to the orphans.

Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#47

Post by schuke »

candiodari wrote: post #33
dghf wrote: post #32

This bit confused me: > China bans all activists' commemorations and highly regulates online discussion of the incident, including censoring criticism. But it is marked annually by activists elsewhere in the world, particularly in Hong Kong and Taiwan. [Emphasis added.] Hong Kong is part of China, albeit as a special administrative region. So does the ban not apply in HK? Or does it apply in theory, but in practice i…

The last one. There's no stopping these activites in Hong Kong. (for the moment) It is becoming very clear however, that a serious crackdown from Beijing is coming. Not on this particular incident, but in general on the political freedom in Hong Kong. It is becoming undeniable China demanded Hong Kong back in order to destroy it. But when it will arrive. Good question.

This is not exactly correct. HK has pretty solid rule of law and has a Basic Law that guarantees freedom of speech. Beijing cannot interfere directly and activists face completely different consequences after speaking out. That's why Beijing can only abduct a few booksellers from HK and had to deal with the messy fallout.

Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#48

Post by Finnucane »

hux_ wrote: post #20
bartread wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reading that made me feel physically sick, and then the line afterwards about the girls begging for their lives who were bayonetted. Just awful. I have, and probably always will, find Chinese culture somewhat fascinating but I have no love for their political regime.

Yup in contrast the American regime has about 1000x [1] the death toll but at least those people weren't bulldozed and it didn't make you and me feel too bad. Calling the other side evil is easy. Spotting hypocrisy is easy. Doing something about hyprocisy is much harder. It involves admitting to ourselves that all of us are capable of doing dumb shit. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_war_crimes

The crimes of one country don’t lessen the crimes of another. A government ordering the wholesale slaughter of its own citizens should be roundly condemned by all no matter what.

Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#49

Post by glenstein »

zizek23 wrote: post #45

In a previous naive world intoxicated by dreams of global citizenry and humanism it would be easy to get sanctimonious and posture about evil. But cultural divides are real and are not going away. And these kind of events and stories simply become opportunities to target other countries weaknesses, reassert a jingoistic sense of superiority and perpetuate existing comfort zones. Or there would be protests daily in we…

I don't think whataboutism, or exhortations to appreciate the complexity of global politics carry more value than the basic, straightforward observation that what happened at Tiananmen was horrible and unforgiveable, and should forever be held against China.

People don't have the energy to protest everything, because we're poor, exhausted, distracted, and yes, often confused and hypocritical. It doesn't mean the observations we make about atrocities are insincere or untrue or that they are unworthy of attention. And independently of our sincerity or consistency, I think the observation is simply true on its merits anyway, and it's bewildering (to me at least) why anything other than that should matter.

Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#50

Post by mutteraloo »

zizek23 wrote: post #45

In a previous naive world intoxicated by dreams of global citizenry and humanism it would be easy to get sanctimonious and posture about evil. But cultural divides are real and are not going away. And these kind of events and stories simply become opportunities to target other countries weaknesses, reassert a jingoistic sense of superiority and perpetuate existing comfort zones. Or there would be protests daily in we…

There's a very easy way anyone can start fighting against a brutal regime like this:

Stop buying stuff from China. Just stop. Support local made.

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