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Bitcoin and almost every other cryptocurrency crashed hard today

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Re: Bitcoin and almost every other cryptocurrency crashed hard today

#391

Post by oelmekki »

tedeh wrote: post #277
gressquel wrote: post #19

Downvote me all you want, but HN really needs to cure this bitcoin-jealousy. Yes, people who invested early became millionares and billionares with a single mouse click. I know it feels unfair when you spend countless hours creating and innovating and not being rewarded. But some of you here needs to stop hating and being bitter. I have been watching HN and bitcoin related threads for months now. Same pattern.

I've always thought of HN as the place where you can reliably get a contrarian opinion. See for instance that research some time ago showing the top-voted comment of most submissions on HN being a refutation of the thing that was submitted. Cryptocurrencies have been rising in value at an astronomical pace the last few months, and Bitcoin may currently be the biggest asset bubble in human history [1]. It would seem i…

There's an other group who is very good at refuting everything: conspirationists. I love how HN comments often provide more insight into subjects that the article they are discussing, but this is no excuse for the blatant discarding of any new idea it often demonstrates. I've been around for a while, and quite frankly, I more and more skip top comments to find really interesting content.

Note that I reply here on the general HN sentiment, not regarding cryptocurrencies specifically. Although I would say that on the topic at hand : beware making general judgments based on one bad day.

Re: Bitcoin and almost every other cryptocurrency crashed hard today

#392

Post by em3rgent0rdr »

lurr wrote: post #385
em3rgent0rdr wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If such a loose definition of "backing" is going to be used, then one could also say that bitcoin is "essentially backed" by its utility as a medium of exchange. That utility is a consequence of: (1) the infaliabilty of its public ledger (which means it is especially useful where trust is low and where trust is needed). (2) The ease of making a transaction.* *Aside: since the bitcoin transaction volume currently exce…

> (1) the infaliabilty of its public ledger (which means it is especially useful where trust is low and where trust is needed). Except when they roll it back because people with more money than you demanded it after they got screwed somehow.

How can they possibly "roll it back"?

Re: Bitcoin and almost every other cryptocurrency crashed hard today

#393

Post by dresstotheleft »

Retric wrote: post #312
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It was almost as if the entire cryptocurrency space had turned into a huge unregulated casino. [/thread]. That's really what it is, but instead of casino, call it a stock market. With that one there's a lot of regulation in place - including new European legislation, MiFID II ( http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_MEMO-14-305_en.htm ), which in part is aimed at protecting clueless investors from themselves. The cry…

Stocks are inherently a positive some game. Crypto is by definition a negative sum game where every $ taken out needs to be matched by a dollar put in and beyond that people need to pay for mining.

> Crypto is by definition a negative sum game

Zero sum. Also, stocks have an underlying asset. There really is none with cryptos.

Re: Bitcoin and almost every other cryptocurrency crashed hard today

#394

Post by root_axis »

Klathmon wrote: post #350
root_axis wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Simply making a new cryptocurrency is exactly the same as making a new company, or a new facebook, or a new toyota, or a new anything. No, it isn't at all similar, because business are specialized entities with specific properties that cannot be easily replicated, unlike a crypto-token ledger which can be instantly and effortlessly replicated with identical qualities and capabilities at near zero cost. > So is the…

Why do you think it "costs nothing" to create a successful crypto-token? I can create a business with a hundred dollars and a trip to the local government building, but that doesn't mean i'll be successful, or that i'm a competitor to facebook. Just like how anyone can fork a cryptocurrency, that doesn't make them successful or a competitor to bitcoin. And I disagree about how creating a business can cost the creator…

> Why do you think it "costs nothing" to create a successful crypto-token?

Because "success" for a crypto-token requires near zero effort from the entity deploying the ledger, all that is necessary is to rebrand forked code and pump enough hype into it so that people start buying it. The billion dollar ICO phenomenon is a concrete example of exactly what I'm referring to and that's just one blockchain with a second layer of abstraction on top. If Donald Trump forked litecoin tomorrow and told all his followers to buy the best cryptocurrency ever and that bitcoin was a fake-news token supported by the Obamas, Trump-Coin would be within the top 5 crypto-tokens literally over night.

> I can create a business with a hundred dollars and a trip to the local government building

And if Trump went on TV and pumped that business every day for a year, it would be a certain failure because a "business" is not a clerical detail that you can effortlessly replicate by filing paperwork with the government, it's an organization that embodies the implementation of a concrete business process, it requires that the business owner actually do something.

> the network, the users, the trust, the amount of hardware and software written for it, the number of implementations, the amount of acceptance at vendors, the number of reputable exchanges, and the amount of decentralization

Right... but there is nothing marrying any of that to any specific implementation of a compatible blockchain, this was particularly apparent with the BTC vs BCH fork where companies didn't even know whether or not they should recognize the new ledger that was instantly created out of thin air... but ultimately they decided they would recognize it and suddenly there is "double" the total amount of bitcoin that existed previously. These kind of things can't happen with a business because you can't instantly fork a functioning business with 5 minutes and a PR.

Re: Bitcoin and almost every other cryptocurrency crashed hard today

#395

Post by bogomipz »

mutteraloo wrote: post #193
bogomipz wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>"- not rare" Its not a commodity it's a currency. Why does it need to be "rare"? The US dollar is also not backed by anything "rare" and hasn't been since Nixon abandoned the gold standard in 1973. >"didn't have any government backing or big institutional backing in case the price dropped from 19,000 to 11,000" You realize this is the exact reason it was created right? That's the whole point. It's not coincidence th…

when you talk to a bitcoin enthusiast, at first it was 'well it's a currency'. then after seeing the transaction fee and time, it was 'well it's a store of value'. then after seeing the 80% price drop, it was 'well it's rare'. then after seeing hundreds of cryptocurrencies on coinbase it was '......?'

>" then after seeing the transaction fee and time, it was 'well it's a store of value'"

Whats the connection between the transaction fee and time and the "store of value" justification. I didn't follow that.

Re: Bitcoin and almost every other cryptocurrency crashed hard today

#396

Post by Klathmon »

root_axis wrote: post #394
Klathmon wrote: post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think it "costs nothing" to create a successful crypto-token? I can create a business with a hundred dollars and a trip to the local government building, but that doesn't mean i'll be successful, or that i'm a competitor to facebook. Just like how anyone can fork a cryptocurrency, that doesn't make them successful or a competitor to bitcoin. And I disagree about how creating a business can cost the creator…

> Why do you think it "costs nothing" to create a successful crypto-token? Because "success" for a crypto-token requires near zero effort from the entity deploying the ledger, all that is necessary is to rebrand forked code and pump enough hype into it so that people start buying it. The billion dollar ICO phenomenon is a concrete example of exactly what I'm referring to and that's just one blockchain with a second l…

You need to do some more research, because the way you describe things is not how they really are.

The success of a crypto requires much more than just forking and publishing, it's not just hype based except for the scams and fly-by-night operations.

And there aren't "double" the Bitcoin any more than a photocopy of dollar bill doubles the amount of money in circulation.

There is a new cryptocurrency called Bitcoin Cash, but that is not the same as Bitcoin. Just because they have similar names doesn't make then the same, just because they come from the same codebase doesn't make them the same.

Unless you also think that creating a successful browser is just hitting fork and publish, or creating a successful operating system is just hitting fork and publish, or creating a new Facebook is just copying the functionality.

If it's really that easy, then please take over Bitcoin yourself, as there are literally hundreds of billions of dollars to be made here, surely if it's that easy you can handle it?

Re: Bitcoin and almost every other cryptocurrency crashed hard today

#397

Post by solotronics »

dwild wrote: post #272
aviv wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

His life was most definitely in danger.

There seems to be missing something in your story to show danger. They just asked for his cash, nothing show any sign in danger in that. Would you pull out a gun because someone asked you for food too? Was there a threat? Which kind of threat? Did it look like these guys had the means to carry that threat and did it look like they actually were going to carry that threat? I wouldn't kill a guy in hope to get a few th…

In most states in the US you are definitely allowed to defend yourself and your property by brandishing and using a gun. "life, liberty, and property" -Locke

Re: Bitcoin and almost every other cryptocurrency crashed hard today

#398

Post by solotronics »

cvsh wrote: post #163
solotronics wrote: post #52

Buying on the way down, see you all on the upswing in about a year. I bought after the MtGox crash in 2013 and can't wait to buy this bear market!

I feel like this may have been the last upswing this big. A lot of regular folks are going to get burned, and they're not going to forget. The societal consensus 6 months from now will be that Bitcoin Was A Scam, and that'll depress speculative potential. Which is a good thing, insofar as Bitcoin may actually have a future as a currency. But a bad thing for HODLers.

a similar but much more pronounced thing happened in 2013 when MtGox was hacked and the Bitcoin price crashed. people will rush back in to try and make a quick buck

Re: Bitcoin and almost every other cryptocurrency crashed hard today

#399

Post by Retric »

dresstotheleft wrote: post #393
Retric wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stocks are inherently a positive some game. Crypto is by definition a negative sum game where every $ taken out needs to be matched by a dollar put in and beyond that people need to pay for mining.

> Crypto is by definition a negative sum game Zero sum. Also, stocks have an underlying asset. There really is none with cryptos.

Negative sum means all players on average are worse off.

Think of it as a poker game where each player hands 10$ to the dealer to sit at the table. Now, if the players are exchanging chips individual players may end up ahead, but on average at the end of the night everyone is down 10$.

Transaction fees are very much playing a deal to sit at the table. Miners do spend money to get tokens, but nobody in the game receives that money it's just gone and miners need someone else's money to get paid.

Re: Bitcoin and almost every other cryptocurrency crashed hard today

#400

Post by bogomipz »

Klathmon wrote: post #255
mutteraloo wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

when you talk to a bitcoin enthusiast, at first it was 'well it's a currency'. then after seeing the transaction fee and time, it was 'well it's a store of value'. then after seeing the 80% price drop, it was 'well it's rare'. then after seeing hundreds of cryptocurrencies on coinbase it was '......?'

It sounds like you are talking to different people, who all think different things... I personally see cryptocurrencies as a decentralized way to transact money. Yes, bitcoin is failing in this area currently, and while they have plans on how to fix it, they are not going to get here soon enough to keep this valuation up in my mind. If you ask a friend of mine, he will tell you that he has always thought of cryptocur…

>"Yes, bitcoin is failing in this area currently, and while they have plans on how to fix it, they are not going to get here soon enough to keep this valuation up in my mind."

Can you elaborate on this? What exactly is the plan?

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