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What Would It Take to Fix New York’s Subway?

nytimes.com

81–90 of 176 posts

Re: What Would It Take to Fix New York’s Subway?

#81
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Completely agree -- not to mention that the reason it stopped being privately owned in the first place was that the original companies went out of business.

Wasn't there some story about the city prohibiting them from raising fares? I don't have a source though.

I wasn't aware of this, so I looked around a bit and found this [1] from a book about the history of the subway system. Apparently they kept trying to raise it, but were blocked by the mayor, Walker. Of course, the first order of business after it was taken over by the state was to raise the fare.

Edit: found the underlying case, [2], but it looks less than straightforward -- the fixed fair was a condition of the leases on the right-of-way of the train system, and the attempt was made to charge a second fare when a certain boundary was crossed.

[1] https://books.google.com/books?id=LYSVd43vZwQC&lpg=PR13&ots=...

[2] https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/279/159/case.htm...

Re: What Would It Take to Fix New York’s Subway?

#83
The theme is often money, but here's where I think NYC (and the U.S.) get it wrong, and how other countries like the UK and France get it right. I'm no civil engineer or government contract negotiator so I'd love to be corrected here, but here goes.

The U.S. prides itself on local government, private industry and so forth, public-private cooperation ideally leading to more money efficiency since private companies 'care' and governments are 'wasteful'. Great. However, some problems I've noticed here:

-- Local government is actually more inefficient. The ARC project cancelation which would have already dug a tunnel under the Hudson river between NYC and NJ in the biggest commuter hub in the country was canceled because three government organizations, NY State, NJ State and the Port Authority, couldn't agree on funding and were playing politics. The NJ governor (Christie) later allocated the moneys to lower the gas tax before his re-election campaign as well as for highway repair

-- MTA, the parent organization that runs the NYC subway system, is said to be woefully underfunded and so forth. Yet, the Port Authority, a totally unrelated organization FUNDED BY TAX MONEYS AND PUBLIC TRANSPORT TOLL COLLECTIONS, spent $4B to refurbish a single station and erect a dinosaur skeleton and called it the "World Trade Center transit hub." While the subway system this transit hub is attached to is utterly failing apart due to repairs. A strong centralized government would have made this less likely. Fulton St Station was refurbished for the cost of 1.4B, again at the same time that signals are failing and trains are breaking in other parts of the subway system this station is attached to.

How do either of these projects get away with giving billions of dollars to select contractors, to select private corporations, (st)architects and so forth? How do we ensure that someone in power didn't get in bed with one of these private developers?

-- The NYC Mayor and the NY State governor fight seemingly daily over blame for the disastrous subway system. The Mayor himself is something of a scatterbrain, getting involved in issues when he gets screamed at, while the governor cares more about his constituents upstate. Both are fairly corrupt.

There IS money, the money just goes to insane places due to the scattered players: private organizations, cross state organizations like the Port Authority, city governments, state governments, federal governments...

Isn't this one of the reasons why NYC transit construction and repair costs are so much more than places like London, where A) the system is WAY older b) the tunnels are MUCH deeper and narrower and yet C) they override these problems by establishing new lines like the Overground, the DLR and the Crossrail.

London (a city I lived in a few years) seems to be moving at a much more rapid evolutionary path than NYC, which seems like it's crumbling around us.

Re: What Would It Take to Fix New York’s Subway?

#84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to think the TWU has power that it really does not have. The MTA has been consolidating the subway system's towers since the 1970s, closing a number of the electromechanical towers and replacing them with transistorized (and now computerized) equipment. In the 90s and 00s they had a grand plan to create a single control center for the whole system, but they hired incompetent contractors who failed to deliver…

> You seem to think the TWU has power that it really does not have. All the TWU can do is stop the MTA from eliminating jobs, they cannot stop the MTA's plans to install new equipment. I don't think you understand how much power the TWU does have. Not only do they have the power to stop projects altogether, like automating the trains (which they did, as noted in the article), but they do have the ability to either de…

The article says the union did exactly what I said the union can do: prevent the MTA from cutting jobs. That does not prevent the MTA from modernizing the signal system -- the entire context of the dispute over the L line was the MTA's effort to reduce trains to a one-man crew, from the current two-man crew, after a modern signal system was installed and operational. The MTA is busy installing that same modern system on two lines in Queens.

The TWU is not a massive force in transit projects. At worst, they block cost-cutting measures that modern technology can enable through automation. CBTC has benefits beyond automated trains -- it allows trains to run closer together and it allows more flexible usage of the tracks (the current block system does not allow track directions to change as needed, for example). Like I said, the reason this was not deployed in the 90s is that the MTA wasted 15 years trying to build a single tower to control the entire system; things are proceeding now because the MTA went back to its previous approach of consolidation. The TWU had nothing to do with it and continues to have nothing to do with it.

Re: What Would It Take to Fix New York’s Subway?

#85
post #60

Why are they talking about moving stairs? Why is this first on the list? What is this madness? The stairs don't need to be moved. They simply need to add more brand new lines and stations and invest in infrastructure to improve reliability. That's it. The NYC Subway is not "broken" because the stairs are in the wrong place. The NYC Subway isn't even "broken."

I'm actually happy they listed something as "trivial" as station configuration first. The list is full of things that are either politically fraught, or are already in progress and just take of a lot of time.

Reconfiguring individual stations may be a big win, because they come with only a modest one-time cost (y'know, sixty-to-a-hundred million, also known in the US as "cheap"), but result in immediate and appreciable gains in particular spots. The nature of these projects makes them easy to brand, boast, and sometimes fund, and you can do them (largely) independent from other, large-scale things you have in the pipe that will take years to come to fruition.

Re: What Would It Take to Fix New York’s Subway?

#86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NYC is rich but has very different priorities than other cities. It even operates its own forgien intel service. It is a city dedicated to servicing luxury real estate and the people who own it, neither of which care one iota about subways.

You are wrong. Luxury real estate in NYC is dependent on the transit system, and gentrification tends to follow subway lines. The value of a NYC apartment is related to the proximity to a subway stop. This is why, for example, the new 2nd Ave. subway line ends where it ends -- the next planned stop is in a neighborhood that has not been gentrified, while the existing stops serve several luxury developments.

I think you and the person you're replying to are using vastly different definitions of luxury real estate. Add a few zeros. :)

Re: What Would It Take to Fix New York’s Subway?

#87

I find this situation incredibly interesting as an outsider. I live in the SF Bay Area where we have a Muni "subway", if you can even call it reminiscent of one and BART. They're both absolutely awful, between not having good/expansive coverage/timely service. A plethora of issues plague both. Both times I visited NYC this year I took the subway everywhere. Out of probably 40-50 subway rides, only a handful were dela…

[deleted]

Re: What Would It Take to Fix New York’s Subway?

#88

I find this situation incredibly interesting as an outsider. I live in the SF Bay Area where we have a Muni "subway", if you can even call it reminiscent of one and BART. They're both absolutely awful, between not having good/expansive coverage/timely service. A plethora of issues plague both. Both times I visited NYC this year I took the subway everywhere. Out of probably 40-50 subway rides, only a handful were dela…

A tourist won't have the same view because you are unlikely commuting from the Burroughs at rush hour.

Commuting from Plymouth Township, Michigan is indeed quite hard.

Re: What Would It Take to Fix New York’s Subway?

#89

I still don't understand why the signal system takes so long to upgrade. Can't they install most of the new system while the old one is still working on the same tracks? And isn't digital signalling available from contractors that have already done the work in other cities?

NYC signal systems is extremely complex and old. 24/7 nature makes it hard to do proper maintenance. Old signal system requires nonstop maintenance to keep it running, and it needs to keep running while new system is installed which is extremely expensive. Tons of politics involved too. https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2015/11/why-d...

It is not all that expensive to operate the old system while the new system is installed. They throw a burlap sack over the new signals until they are ready to activate them, and otherwise the old system just remains in use and costs exactly what it would cost without the new system being installed.

The old system has become somewhat more expensive because replacement parts are not needed anywhere else. Originally it was all standard railroad equipment and the same interlocking machines were used on other regional railroads (including freight lines). Since the MTA is among the last users of those machines, they have to fabricate some of the parts or special order others.

That said, the old system is pretty reliable and does not require "constant maintenance" beyond what a railroad generally requires. Its shortcomings are mostly in its inability to run trains more closely together, its inability to identify which train is in which block, and its inflexibility with regard to track directions. Otherwise the maintenance is mostly replacing light bulbs and vacuum tubes, and rarely having to replace mechanical parts. In theory the lightbulbs and vacuum tubes could be replaced with solid state components, but in practice there would be no point -- you might as well just replace all of it with solid state equipment, which the MTA is (slowly) accomplishing.

Re: What Would It Take to Fix New York’s Subway?

#90
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But parts of the systems do shut down time to time, by rerouting trains, or by just canceling them and providing shuttle buses. It's perfectly possible to get 8-12 hours long uninterrupted work windows for significant stretches of the railway. The work has to be incremental, of course.

Incrementally redoing the signal system is difficult, particularly because the system has lots of branches and reverse branches--which means you have to basically have it enableable on the entire system before you can enable it, rather than doing lines at a time.

Except that the MTA is doing it on sections of lines at a time. It is actually not hard, because the equipment does not have to be aware of things beyond whatever sections of track it controls (otherwise, any upgrade would require national coordination, since most rail systems, including the NYC subway, are connected to the national rail network).
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