What Would It Take to Fix New York’s Subway? • Hacker News Board

Re: What Would It Take to Fix New York’s Subway?

#11

Post by sandworm101 » Fri, Dec 22, 2017, 4:08 PM UTC

perfectstorm wrote: post #5

randomerr wrote: post #2

New York doesn't have enough money to get it done. The politicians are too busy paying for all the election promises they've made over the last 50 years. And they absolutely need to cut the bureaucracy (code word for 'unions' and 'government agencies') that are deeply entrenched in the government. I don't think New York can do it until the people get tired of watching the decay and the current political machine gets…

I'm curious how much money is needed. Why is it that Japan, Hong Kong and most developed European cities have much better rail transportation ? I don't think money is the only issue. NYC is probably one of the richest cities in the world and yet you say they don't have the money to fix this ? I know construction in US is expensive but it can't be that bad.

NYC is rich but has very different priorities than other cities. It even operates its own forgien intel service. It is a city dedicated to servicing luxury real estate and the people who own it, neither of which care one iota about subways.

Re: What Would It Take to Fix New York’s Subway?

#12

Post by Nelkins » Fri, Dec 22, 2017, 4:08 PM UTC

closeparen wrote: post #6

Nelkins wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have enough money, if we get our costs under control. Our capital costs (and operating costs...actually everything) are much higher than most other cities/countries. Some good analysis here[1], in addition to this series the NY Times is running. [1] https://pedestrianobservations.com/construction-costs/

New York isn’t a greenfield project. There’s a massive legacy system with decades of maintenance debt. Of course it’s going to be more expensive to fix than to maintain an already-maintained system.

That may be technically true, but we should be comparing ourselves to other countries that have had to tackle the same problems. Consider the Paris Métro[1], which is even older than the NYC subway system (1900 vs 1904). They have much better service, lower capital and operating costs, automated trains, etc. We need to take a hard look at ourselves and stop using NYC exceptionalism as an excuse.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_Métro

Re: What Would It Take to Fix New York’s Subway?

#13

Post by bobthechef » Fri, Dec 22, 2017, 4:08 PM UTC

perfectstorm wrote: post #5

randomerr wrote: post #2

New York doesn't have enough money to get it done. The politicians are too busy paying for all the election promises they've made over the last 50 years. And they absolutely need to cut the bureaucracy (code word for 'unions' and 'government agencies') that are deeply entrenched in the government. I don't think New York can do it until the people get tired of watching the decay and the current political machine gets…

I'm curious how much money is needed. Why is it that Japan, Hong Kong and most developed European cities have much better rail transportation ? I don't think money is the only issue. NYC is probably one of the richest cities in the world and yet you say they don't have the money to fix this ? I know construction in US is expensive but it can't be that bad.

Precisely.

Also, isn't there an interesting relationship b/w the state and the city wrt funding where the state is responsible for the subway and not the city?

Re: What Would It Take to Fix New York’s Subway?

#14

Post by bogomipz » Fri, Dec 22, 2017, 4:08 PM UTC

randomerr wrote: post #2

New York doesn't have enough money to get it done. The politicians are too busy paying for all the election promises they've made over the last 50 years. And they absolutely need to cut the bureaucracy (code word for 'unions' and 'government agencies') that are deeply entrenched in the government. I don't think New York can do it until the people get tired of watching the decay and the current political machine gets…

Sadly I agree with most of what you said. Unfortunately I think the cards are stacked against progress here. People like to site the deplorable state of the NYC Subway in the 1970s as evidence that the current situation can be fixed. However investment was made in the system back then before it reached a tipping point and it took over a decade of investing to get out of that.

Now after 20 years of underinvesting this needs to be done against the backdrop of a population boom and ridership explosion.

>"I don't think New York can do it until the people get tired of watching the decay and the current political machine gets voted out."

Unfortunately this is even harder to fix than the MTA. Its not just the long-standing culture of corruption in Albany, but its the culture of corruption from City Hall, the MTA's contractors and MTA's Union.

Of course just fixing the governance structure of the MTA would be a great start but when you look at how this structure actually works you might be forgiven being cynical:

https://www.city-journal.org/html/who-runs-mta-15281.html

Re: What Would It Take to Fix New York’s Subway?

#15

Post by bryanlarsen » Fri, Dec 22, 2017, 4:09 PM UTC

perfectstorm wrote: post #5

randomerr wrote: post #2

New York doesn't have enough money to get it done. The politicians are too busy paying for all the election promises they've made over the last 50 years. And they absolutely need to cut the bureaucracy (code word for 'unions' and 'government agencies') that are deeply entrenched in the government. I don't think New York can do it until the people get tired of watching the decay and the current political machine gets…

I'm curious how much money is needed. Why is it that Japan, Hong Kong and most developed European cities have much better rail transportation ? I don't think money is the only issue. NYC is probably one of the richest cities in the world and yet you say they don't have the money to fix this ? I know construction in US is expensive but it can't be that bad.

Hong Kong has a really interesting answer to that question: they turn a >$1B profit each year. But they can be better described as a real estate company that runs a subway as a side business to make their real estate more valuable.

Re: What Would It Take to Fix New York’s Subway?

#16

Post by bobthechef » Fri, Dec 22, 2017, 4:09 PM UTC

sandworm101 wrote: post #11

perfectstorm wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious how much money is needed. Why is it that Japan, Hong Kong and most developed European cities have much better rail transportation ? I don't think money is the only issue. NYC is probably one of the richest cities in the world and yet you say they don't have the money to fix this ? I know construction in US is expensive but it can't be that bad.

NYC is rich but has very different priorities than other cities. It even operates its own forgien intel service. It is a city dedicated to servicing luxury real estate and the people who own it, neither of which care one iota about subways.

Sounds to me like it needs to shift around some of those priorities.

Re: What Would It Take to Fix New York’s Subway?

#17

Post by comicjk » Fri, Dec 22, 2017, 4:11 PM UTC

cft wrote: post #3

Privatize it. Like it was originally built.

Who would buy it? The system has $40 billion in debt, plus pension obligations, plus union contracts. The only way to make money on this privately would be declaring bankruptcy and hoping for a good settlement.

Re: What Would It Take to Fix New York’s Subway?

#18

Post by CoolGuySteve » Fri, Dec 22, 2017, 4:11 PM UTC

lr4444lr wrote: post #10

CoolGuySteve wrote: post #9

I still don't understand why the signal system takes so long to upgrade. Can't they install most of the new system while the old one is still working on the same tracks? And isn't digital signalling available from contractors that have already done the work in other cities?

No downtime. The system runs 24/7/365.

I'd believe you if my local R line wasn't shut down every weekend for the next year.

Re: What Would It Take to Fix New York’s Subway?

#19

Post by strictnein » Fri, Dec 22, 2017, 4:11 PM UTC

lr4444lr wrote: post #10

CoolGuySteve wrote: post #9

I still don't understand why the signal system takes so long to upgrade. Can't they install most of the new system while the old one is still working on the same tracks? And isn't digital signalling available from contractors that have already done the work in other cities?

No downtime. The system runs 24/7/365.

Is it impossible for them to schedule downtime?

Re: What Would It Take to Fix New York’s Subway?

#20

Post by lr4444lr » Fri, Dec 22, 2017, 4:12 PM UTC

randomerr wrote: post #2

New York doesn't have enough money to get it done. The politicians are too busy paying for all the election promises they've made over the last 50 years. And they absolutely need to cut the bureaucracy (code word for 'unions' and 'government agencies') that are deeply entrenched in the government. I don't think New York can do it until the people get tired of watching the decay and the current political machine gets…

Not necessarily disagreeing, but it's important to point out that fixing/upgrading the system comes from the capital budget, and the promises you're describing are paid out of the operating budget. The debt service for the former, is earmarked, by law, from the latter, which clocks in at 16% according to recent figures[0]. And we might have larger capital allocations if there weren't the ongoing and very generous salary scales, heavy use of overtime, and pension obligations.

The question I have is, why were things like the Hudson Yards station, work on the perpetually delayed 2nd Avenue subway, Fulton St. station renovation prioritized over the core signal and preexisting aging track infrastructure?

[0]http://web.mta.info/mta/budget/pdf/MTA%202017%20Adopted%20Bu... (page II-1)