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What Would It Take to Fix New York’s Subway?

nytimes.com

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Re: What Would It Take to Fix New York’s Subway?

#41

Post by betterunix2 »

bobthechef wrote: post #13
perfectstorm wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious how much money is needed. Why is it that Japan, Hong Kong and most developed European cities have much better rail transportation ? I don't think money is the only issue. NYC is probably one of the richest cities in the world and yet you say they don't have the money to fix this ? I know construction in US is expensive but it can't be that bad.

Precisely. Also, isn't there an interesting relationship b/w the state and the city wrt funding where the state is responsible for the subway and not the city?

Sort of; actually, MTA funding is a total mess of state subsidies, taxes on counties in the MTA region (remember, the MTA is more than the subway -- LIRR and MNR are also under its umbrella), city subsidies, city taxes, real estate income, and fare revenue (and maybe a few more things beyond that). The MTA also issued bonds to cover budget gaps, so now in addition to capital and operating costs it has debt service to deal with.

The MTA's internal organization is also a total mess. Metro-North and LIRR use nearly identical equipment (identical except for power systems) but are considered separate agencies within the MTA. The subway system is also considered separate, and in fact there is yet another internal division in the subway: IRT, BMT, and IND (internally referred to as 'A', 'B1', and 'B2' divisions). So there is needless duplication in the management structure. Beyond that, there are two more MTA railroads that are easy to forget about: the Staten Island railroad, and the South Brooklyn Railway (which may be operated as part of the subway's "C" division maintenance group, I am a bit fuzzy on the details there). Incredibly, the SIR uses the same equipment as the BMT and IND, so it is a bit difficult to understand why it is managed separately.

Re: What Would It Take to Fix New York’s Subway?

#42

Post by slededit »

spike021 wrote: post #40

I find this situation incredibly interesting as an outsider. I live in the SF Bay Area where we have a Muni "subway", if you can even call it reminiscent of one and BART. They're both absolutely awful, between not having good/expansive coverage/timely service. A plethora of issues plague both. Both times I visited NYC this year I took the subway everywhere. Out of probably 40-50 subway rides, only a handful were dela…

A tourist won't have the same view because you are unlikely commuting from the Burroughs at rush hour.

Re: What Would It Take to Fix New York’s Subway?

#43

Post by owenversteeg »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #15
perfectstorm wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious how much money is needed. Why is it that Japan, Hong Kong and most developed European cities have much better rail transportation ? I don't think money is the only issue. NYC is probably one of the richest cities in the world and yet you say they don't have the money to fix this ? I know construction in US is expensive but it can't be that bad.

Hong Kong has a really interesting answer to that question: they turn a >$1B profit each year. But they can be better described as a real estate company that runs a subway as a side business to make their real estate more valuable.

Yep, I've always been fascinated with that approach and I think it's one of the best solutions. The station itself enriches the land it's on. Even better, it makes the whole public transit system more efficient. If I have to go to another city to shop at a specific store, then it's far more convenient if that store is located there in the station instead of having to take a bus from the station and back.

Re: What Would It Take to Fix New York’s Subway?

#45

Post by BlanketApple »

spike021 wrote: post #40

I find this situation incredibly interesting as an outsider. I live in the SF Bay Area where we have a Muni "subway", if you can even call it reminiscent of one and BART. They're both absolutely awful, between not having good/expansive coverage/timely service. A plethora of issues plague both. Both times I visited NYC this year I took the subway everywhere. Out of probably 40-50 subway rides, only a handful were dela…

Were you riding during peak hours (7-10, 4-7)?

That's when it tends to get really bad - even minor delays cause massive backups, because the trains are essentially running as close together as the (outdated) signaling technology allows.

Once a delay happens, there's no way to catch up other than just waiting for peak hours to pass and catching up during off-peak time.

That being said, it's still a huge step up from pretty much every other city's metro system (save for maybe DC). It's just that it's gone from being a 8/10 to a 7/10, compared to every other city's 3/10.

Re: What Would It Take to Fix New York’s Subway?

#46

Post by betterunix2 »

sandworm101 wrote: post #11
perfectstorm wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious how much money is needed. Why is it that Japan, Hong Kong and most developed European cities have much better rail transportation ? I don't think money is the only issue. NYC is probably one of the richest cities in the world and yet you say they don't have the money to fix this ? I know construction in US is expensive but it can't be that bad.

NYC is rich but has very different priorities than other cities. It even operates its own forgien intel service. It is a city dedicated to servicing luxury real estate and the people who own it, neither of which care one iota about subways.

You are wrong. Luxury real estate in NYC is dependent on the transit system, and gentrification tends to follow subway lines. The value of a NYC apartment is related to the proximity to a subway stop. This is why, for example, the new 2nd Ave. subway line ends where it ends -- the next planned stop is in a neighborhood that has not been gentrified, while the existing stops serve several luxury developments.

Re: What Would It Take to Fix New York’s Subway?

#47

Post by dsfyu404ed »

gotofritz wrote: post #7
cft wrote: post #3

Privatize it. Like it was originally built.

London Underground was privatised, then the government had to step in to rescue the firm that went bankrupt...

Fine. Sell it to some investment firm, let the new owners run it with zero empathy, pay off whoever they need to pay off to kick out the union, reduce headcount, cut benefits, sell off assets and all the other things you expect and investment firm worth anything to do when it acquires something. Then in a decade when that becomes untenable and the public demands the state take back over the state takes back over and inherits a much different and more workable mess than it has at present.

The hole is very deep. There's no way out that isn't slow and painful.

Re: What Would It Take to Fix New York’s Subway?

#48

Post by nimbius »

Apparently an act of congress wouldnt be an uphill battle if history is to be any teacher... http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/president-ford-announces...

service runs very well in NYC (anecdotally), but compared to cities like LA or Phoenix their trains are the haggard burro's of times long gone. Sad to say but I feel the only thing that will improve the quality of this service over time is cascading system failures similar to what BART is experiencing. Politicians are gleefully divorced from the concept of public transportation in their largest city, so until the NYC Subway begins to impact titans of industry and their ability to call upon the masses to come to work on time, its likely to remain a grisly reminder of just how real living in america can be.

A culture shift might not hurt either, although full disclosure im not entirely steeped in the culture of the big apple. Here in Los Angeles, extending our purple line train to the tune of four billion dollars seemed like a generally wise investment to everyone; the tax passed easily.

Re: What Would It Take to Fix New York’s Subway?

#50

Post by js8 »

lr4444lr wrote: post #10
CoolGuySteve wrote: post #9

I still don't understand why the signal system takes so long to upgrade. Can't they install most of the new system while the old one is still working on the same tracks? And isn't digital signalling available from contractors that have already done the work in other cities?

No downtime. The system runs 24/7/365.

That's interesting. In Prague, subway (which is IMHO superior to NY subway in some ways) is closed every day from midnight till 5 am (roughly, I think it is extended by an hour during weekends). Instead, we have night trams and buses, so the downtime is not a big deal. Maybe a change of culture would be helpful?
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