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Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

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Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#551

Post by phkahler »

lorenzq wrote: post #143
racer-v wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a perception in computer programming that any experience outside of the specific language, library and toolkit being used on the project is irrelevant. Or worse, an impediment; "I don't want somebody with bad habits and instincts acquired from working on now-obsolete systems". Managers really believe a kid with 3 years JavaScript experience and 1 year of Vue is as good (or better) than a senior programmer wit…

If that older Unix or C++ programmer doesn't have a strong bias against Javascript, functional programming, new es6/es7 concepts, and web appliactions in general, then sure. I see many of these types of people even on HN with biases though. Age shouldn't be used as a catch all filter, but I can see how it might be faster to screen those who have been too content to stick to their tools without catching up to industry…

>> If that older Unix or C++ programmer doesn't have a strong bias against Javascript, functional programming, new es6/es7 concepts, and web appliactions in general, then sure. I see many of these types of people even on HN with biases though.

You might want to check your own bias in favor of functional programming. To the more seasoned programmers this is just the latest fad. That's not to say there isn't value in it, but if you're making hiring decisions around it you've probably got your head in the clouds.

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#552

Post by walshemj »

leggomylibro wrote: post #76
combatentropy wrote: post #66

It doesn't make sense to me to discriminate against people with more experience. Can someone explain it to me? I have heard that companies like recent grads because they are (1) more malleable and (2) can be paid less. But neither of those reasons seem to me strong enough. I'm talking completely about the company's own interests. Let's address the first reason: malleability. A recent grad presumably will adopt the co…

It's a race to the bottom. You could pay more for better work that gets done more slowly (fewer hours as people have families, etc,) or you could pay less for worse work that gets done more quickly. Well, iOS11 needs to ship on its annual schedule, non-negotiable. And the SVP will really complain if I ask for more money this quarter. So, cheap it is. If a bridge falls down, it's really obvious and people die. If bill…

so apply timeboxing

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#553

Post by itsybitsyspider »

I think one of the reasons is because fluid intelligence declines as people get older - it's maybe an unpopular and uncomfortable, but still, a scientific fact proven by many psychological studies. If I was an employer, I'd definitely prefer someone who's at the peak of their intellectual capabilities.

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#554

Post by rimliu »

nurettin wrote: post #443
combatentropy wrote: post #66

It doesn't make sense to me to discriminate against people with more experience. Can someone explain it to me? I have heard that companies like recent grads because they are (1) more malleable and (2) can be paid less. But neither of those reasons seem to me strong enough. I'm talking completely about the company's own interests. Let's address the first reason: malleability. A recent grad presumably will adopt the co…

Here's my experience with an elderly coder in his mid 50s. He was a decent delphi and .net coder, he was a decent human being, but he had health problems. Most of the week he had hospital appointments. He required nose surgery. His blood levels were low. He needed vitamin d and iron supplements and during our four month acquintance, he never got any better. He constantly forgot things and he feared his lack of iron h…

Counter anecdote: I was the oldest guy in the team and took the least day of the sick leave (none).

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#555

Post by walshemj »

ryandrake wrote: post #212
ryanmarsh wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If billions of computers become vulnerable to malicious actors and a few hundred or thousand people suffer dramatic personal damages, well that's a nice and quiet problem which will be quickly forgotten in the 24-hour news cycle. This. I do development coaching and training. I’m totally burned out because my job doesn’t matter. These companies don’t care. They hire me to “increase code quality” but that ends up being…

The topic of your rant is something that it took me forever to accept as a software engineer. Nobody cares about quality. Your method is refactored to be super-fast and have no branches? Nobody cares. Elegant, re-usable architecture? Nobody cares. You've optimized an inner loop in assembly and increased speed by 30%? Nobody cares. Made it to zero compiler warnings? Nobody cares. No known crashers left in the bug trac…

if you improved the efficiency of a hpc shot by 30% I am sure people would sit up and take notice :-)

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#556

Post by princetman »

itsybitsyspider wrote: post #553

I think one of the reasons is because fluid intelligence declines as people get older - it's maybe an unpopular and uncomfortable, but still, a scientific fact proven by many psychological studies. If I was an employer, I'd definitely prefer someone who's at the peak of their intellectual capabilities.

Care to provide any links or elaborate further on such studies? I'm very curious about this.

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#557

Post by troels »

To be fair, maybe they aren't deliberately discriminating. Advertisement isn't free, so with a limited budget you will want to optimise your ads for conversion. That's marketing 101. Maybe they think (or even have evidence to support) that a specific demography has a higher conversion rate. For example, the reasoning might be that there are more programmers amongst younger people. It would then be inefficient to advertise to other groups.

Sure, there is a grey area here, but the intent might not be as malevolent as implied.

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#558

Post by zerr »

itsybitsyspider wrote: post #553

I think one of the reasons is because fluid intelligence declines as people get older - it's maybe an unpopular and uncomfortable, but still, a scientific fact proven by many psychological studies. If I was an employer, I'd definitely prefer someone who's at the peak of their intellectual capabilities.

I believe "fluid intelligence" (whatever you mean) is similarly important in other fields such as architecture, civil and other engineering, carpentry, art as well as academia, military and governance, etc... no?

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#559

Post by otakucode »

leggomylibro wrote: post #76
combatentropy wrote: post #66

It doesn't make sense to me to discriminate against people with more experience. Can someone explain it to me? I have heard that companies like recent grads because they are (1) more malleable and (2) can be paid less. But neither of those reasons seem to me strong enough. I'm talking completely about the company's own interests. Let's address the first reason: malleability. A recent grad presumably will adopt the co…

It's a race to the bottom. You could pay more for better work that gets done more slowly (fewer hours as people have families, etc,) or you could pay less for worse work that gets done more quickly. Well, iOS11 needs to ship on its annual schedule, non-negotiable. And the SVP will really complain if I ask for more money this quarter. So, cheap it is. If a bridge falls down, it's really obvious and people die. If bill…

If a bridge falls down and people die, the suits go to prison for criminal negligence for not hiring experienced people and giving them the power in the organization to set the schedules. If a system that involves software fails and people die, the courts throw up their hands and say 'nobody knows how computers work, and there are no standards we could claim they violated or ignored' and the company usually doesn't even take much of a PR hit. It should be obvious to everyone that this situation will not stand forever and it will be very bad when it stops... but everyone has motivations to resist the establishment of standards so they'll continue to bicker about it and do nothing until legislators force the issue in the most hamfisted and horrendous way possible.

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#560

Post by exelius »

doktrin wrote: post #474
exelius wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean; that’s fine. I wouldn’t want that job either — it’s why I got an MBA, got out of the tech side and now actually have power over hires/fires and product direction. But unless you’re directly bringing revenue in the door, you are a cost item to be cut. As soon as they can find someone cheaper, they will.

> As soon as they can find someone cheaper, they will. This applies to everyone everywhere, and particularly positions that anyone with basic language and reasoning skills can fill (PMs, MBA types, etc)

Naw, the MBA jobs are all about personal brand and networking. When you make the rules, they tend to benefit you.
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