Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads • Hacker News Board

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#471

Post by golergka » Thu, Dec 21, 2017, 9:23 AM UTC

Bahamut wrote: post #414

emodendroket wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You think having preferences, and being aware of them, and avoiding environments not in line with them, makes him a bad prospective co-worker?

Having preferences is one thing, but being judgmental/presumptuous towards people working in that realm & using slang with a clear derogatory bent to describe them for something that does not inherently relate to morals is another. It’s a sign of a bad attitude.

It's a sign of a very healthy attitude to be open about your opinions and not trying to be "nice" all the time. This is a very american thing, to be constantly positive and nice when you really shouldn't, and in my experience, it's a very detrimental thing to morale and productivity because of how obviously fake it is.

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#472

Post by xocyabencl » Thu, Dec 21, 2017, 9:24 AM UTC

rootlocus wrote: post #465

> It is against the law to discriminate against workers older than 40 in hiring and recruitment. So it's ok to discriminate agaist workers younger than 40? How does this work?

It's just the way the antidiscrimination law is written. I have a visceral "that should be unconstitutional or something" reaction when thinking about it, but then I remember we have age discrimination written into our constitution.

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#473

Post by Terr_ » Thu, Dec 21, 2017, 9:27 AM UTC

QAPereo wrote: post #356

sidlls wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's my take: in the world of software products speed of delivery trumps quality almost every time. Customers seem to be happy with a flaky, feature-lite products and pay for it . They'll pay to have something that kinda-sorta works now and pay to improve it on an extended basis in the B2B space. Development companies recognize this and structure themselves accordingly.

Customers are unhappy, but ignorant of the causes of their unhappiness.

The tyranny of low expectations: "Oh, it broke and I have to start over? Well, computers are like that, right?"

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#474

Post by doktrin » Thu, Dec 21, 2017, 9:29 AM UTC

exelius wrote: post #394

btilly wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I STRONGLY disagree. My experience is that programmers who become "architects" and are only responsible for design and code review tend to go downhill in their skills. It SEEMS like an efficient way to use experienced people, but it is actually an anti-pattern. Their tendency is to develop ideas that sound good but don't work well in practice, and there is no direct way to correct the mistake. (Any time it doesn't wo…

I mean; that’s fine. I wouldn’t want that job either — it’s why I got an MBA, got out of the tech side and now actually have power over hires/fires and product direction. But unless you’re directly bringing revenue in the door, you are a cost item to be cut. As soon as they can find someone cheaper, they will.

> As soon as they can find someone cheaper, they will.

This applies to everyone everywhere, and particularly positions that anyone with basic language and reasoning skills can fill (PMs, MBA types, etc)

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#475

Post by jdietrich » Thu, Dec 21, 2017, 9:29 AM UTC

tlear wrote: post #305

ryandrake wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The topic of your rant is something that it took me forever to accept as a software engineer. Nobody cares about quality. Your method is refactored to be super-fast and have no branches? Nobody cares. Elegant, re-usable architecture? Nobody cares. You've optimized an inner loop in assembly and increased speed by 30%? Nobody cares. Made it to zero compiler warnings? Nobody cares. No known crashers left in the bug trac…

Really? Ship an app to the store that crashes all the time and see your metrics go WAY down. Loosing user data is another great way to lose users permanently. Sure if you are Google of FB it probably does not matter but for smaller companies NOT CRASH, NOT LOOSE USER DATA seems to matter quite a bit in my experience.

B2C is a tiny, tiny fraction of the overall software industry. The vast majority of developers are working on godawful enterprise software that end-users have no choice but to tolerate. The absolute worst apps on the iOS store are remarkably high quality by the standards of enterprise software.

I suggest reading the comments on this thread:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13859961

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#476

Post by Cthulhu_ » Thu, Dec 21, 2017, 9:30 AM UTC

combatentropy wrote: post #66

It doesn't make sense to me to discriminate against people with more experience. Can someone explain it to me? I have heard that companies like recent grads because they are (1) more malleable and (2) can be paid less. But neither of those reasons seem to me strong enough. I'm talking completely about the company's own interests. Let's address the first reason: malleability. A recent grad presumably will adopt the co…

The reason is that software - or a lot of work anyway - is throwaway software. Startups want something that just barely works (MVP that just looks good) and then either picks up and takes off, or gets bought for a few billion by investment companies or Facebook/Google/Twitter/etc - their problem then.

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#477

Post by 3chelon » Thu, Dec 21, 2017, 9:32 AM UTC

lysp wrote: post #211

nickonline wrote: post #91

How did they publish an ad with incorrect grammar? "Here, your more than a number..." It should be you're

Because it was written by their social media team - a hired 20-25yo and not a 40-60yo.

They could do even more age-based filtering if they wrote the ad entirely in emojis.

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#478

Post by stareatgoats » Thu, Dec 21, 2017, 9:33 AM UTC

oh-kumudo wrote: post #464

combatentropy wrote: post #66

It doesn't make sense to me to discriminate against people with more experience. Can someone explain it to me? I have heard that companies like recent grads because they are (1) more malleable and (2) can be paid less. But neither of those reasons seem to me strong enough. I'm talking completely about the company's own interests. Let's address the first reason: malleability. A recent grad presumably will adopt the co…

To be the devil's advocate from employer perspective, old folks: 1. Work fewer hours, because of age and family 2. Pay is higher, because of experience What this implies is their wage per hour metric is higher than younglings. So didn't veteran coder get stuff done more swiftly? IMO, yes, some of them are extremely valuable and irreplaceable. But they are RARE, and doesn't need Facebook Ads to find another job, they…

I'd like to add just one thing to this explanation: Many younger managers simply don't like having their authority challenged by experience. Vanity aside, managers like to build 'their own' teams, with people that they can manage. Older, more experienced people add a level of complexity to that need.

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#479

Post by Cthulhu_ » Thu, Dec 21, 2017, 9:33 AM UTC

asmosoinio wrote: post #440

leggomylibro wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a race to the bottom. You could pay more for better work that gets done more slowly (fewer hours as people have families, etc,) or you could pay less for worse work that gets done more quickly. Well, iOS11 needs to ship on its annual schedule, non-negotiable. And the SVP will really complain if I ask for more money this quarter. So, cheap it is. If a bridge falls down, it's really obvious and people die. If bill…

> It's a race to the bottom. You could pay more for better work that gets done more slowly (fewer hours as people have families, etc,) or you could pay less for worse work that gets done more quickly. But in my experience, this is not true AT ALL. More experienced people might work less hours, but will produce the actual end results much quicker - both in hours and in calendar time. Especially when considering that l…

But that part - bugs, structure - quickly becomes invisible to higher management, as they start to rake in millions the software issues become only minor hitches in comparison. When a company does well, software problems are easily forgiven - Twitter had huge scaling problems but still grew to one of the largest platforms; Coinbase is having regular problems now and is a multi-billion platform. Code quality doesn't matter if the business goes well. We purists like to think that high-quality software sells itself, but I'm more and more starting to think that you can't start off with that.

Of course, on the other hand over-engineering at an early phase of a project is very much a thing too - starting with microservices, using the latest framework or language, etc.

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#480

Post by huhtenberg » Thu, Dec 21, 2017, 9:42 AM UTC

combatentropy wrote: post #66

It doesn't make sense to me to discriminate against people with more experience. Can someone explain it to me? I have heard that companies like recent grads because they are (1) more malleable and (2) can be paid less. But neither of those reasons seem to me strong enough. I'm talking completely about the company's own interests. Let's address the first reason: malleability. A recent grad presumably will adopt the co…

> Can someone explain it to me?

It's very simple - it is harder for younger managers to work with older subordinates.

The age-based hierarchies are deeply ingrained into virtually all cultures - "Elders are wise, respect your elders, etc." This makes arguing with (or reprimanding) someone who's older than you a doubly-uncomfortable task for many people. The reverse is also true - that is being bossed around by people significantly younger than yourself.

When everyone does a splendid job, the age difference is not a problem. But if someone is not pulling their weight, that when it starts to complicate the situation for everyone involved.