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Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

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Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#341

Post by megaman22 »

sheeshkebab wrote: post #295
tracker1 wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been building web applications for over two decades... I love most of the newer tooling over anything I had even a decade ago. Though I do prefer React+* over Angular. I've kept up, some things I love, somethings I frankly use sparingly... that said, I'm definitely biased. I'm more likely to ride on the bleeding edge (Node 8, Webpack 3, Babel 7) than most. I am afraid though, in under a decade it will be an uphi…

There is only so far you can go competing with teenagers in node/js space - pick a different tech stack for the future.

When JS stops reimplementing Unix tools or stuff from the Bell ATT labs from before you were born, I'd start getting worried. The fundamentals are important, when you get into anything more complex than slapping crud apps together. Witness the monstrosities birthed by JS "programmers" that have never slung pointers, or been acquainted with tree operations, or think MVC was birthed with Web 2.0.

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#343

Post by wyager »

avs733 wrote: post #326
QuackingJimbo wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are a few places where this is not true Where?

https://www.fastcompany.com/28121/they-write-right-stuff

This article bothers me because it implies that the path to correct code is simply to have code written by white-collar salarymen (as opposed to unkempt youth), and not improved formal methods.

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#344

Post by TheSmiddy »

baddox wrote: post #220
MilnerRoute wrote: post #191

I want to believe these companies don't know it's illegal to discriminate based on age. Because the alternative is that they're intentionally discriminating -- and thinking they won't get caught, because the ads are only appearing on Facebook. But any government agency that's investigating this can obviously just to ask Facebook for the company's ad buys, and there's an irrefutable paper trail. (It can't be that hard…

Genuine question: is it explicitly illegal to discriminate in your outreach for job applications? Surely similar behavior happens all the time without as much outcry, like recruiting at college career fairs.

At college career fairs you're selecting for people who are graduating with a relevant degree, there is no age requirements for attending college so a 55 year old who is just completing their bachelors could well be one of the people you recruit.

Just because the environment you advertise in is inherently skewed young doesn't make it discrimination, explicitly preventing people of a certain age from seeing your ad is.

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#345

Post by user5994461 »

jjeaff wrote: post #328
user5994461 wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Call it 5 times if you wish. That's a fairly normal range. Costs is more than just salary. 5 weeks vs 2 weeks of hollidays, 401k, health insurance, etc...

Still not realistic. Assuming an entry level dev in sv is making 100k, most 50 year old devs are not making $500k. More like 50% more or at most twice as much.

The norm is to double or triple salary between graduation and much experience. Remember that costs is more than just salary.

In SF/NYC, juniors can start under 100k, seniors can go over 300k. Either number could go either way, let's not argue about who got what. The point is, there is a LARGE multiplier.

I recall one friend in London, in a junior position. Left his company because of bad conditions and bad pay. One of his last assignment was to interview some possible replacements. There was one senior guy 20+ years of experience that was great, the company made an offer for around double his own salary.

Do you know what happened? The guy declined.

Guess what we found out later? He joined another company that offered him around three times that double.

Young folks don't realize how expensive experienced folks can be.

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#346

Post by koolba »

andrewflnr wrote: post #320
eric_b wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you, and this is a hard lesson to learn. But I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing. Software should really only be measured by the value it provides. If a terribly buggy piece of poorly written code still saves hundreds of man hours a week, it's a win. (Unit tests be damned) If that big ball of mud that's using 20 year old technology still prints a billion dollars a year - that's a win. (Microservic…

You're forgetting about ethics. Even if your boss doesn't care about security, if you want to be a decent person, you need to at least try to prevent your system from becoming a tool to harm others.

Hanlon’s razor comes through in full force.

The vast majority of people making agregrious security errors know no better. You could argue that whoever hired them shares or shoulders the blame, but to suggest they’re not decent people is a stretch. Most I’m sure are. They’re also likely infosec idiots.

Now if you know something is terribly insecure, understand what’s involved in fixing it, and go out of your way not to, then yes ethics come into play. I see that the same as an engineer (in the true sense of the word) staying silent on an issue involving automobile brakes that could lead to casualties. The consequences are not 1:1 but the ethical question is in the category.

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#347

Post by humanrebar »

random314 wrote: post #149
combatentropy wrote: post #66

It doesn't make sense to me to discriminate against people with more experience. Can someone explain it to me? I have heard that companies like recent grads because they are (1) more malleable and (2) can be paid less. But neither of those reasons seem to me strong enough. I'm talking completely about the company's own interests. Let's address the first reason: malleability. A recent grad presumably will adopt the co…

Age discrimination happens because your line manager doesn't want a more experienced and higher skilled person reporting to him. You might end up replacing him.

Or disagreeing with them when they're making million-dollar decisions. If the manager is right or wrong, they lose if they're highly-paid senior has a serious concern with a strategic decision. It's safer to just hire a bunch of junior engineers that will be team players.

To be clear, there is a huge win here. And that's hiring good technical leaders and listening and consulting with them on technical strategy, standards, technical employee evaluations, etc. It's actually lower risk and higher reward to do so, but it is more work than telling new hires how to crank out strung-together features on your rule-the-world custom framework.

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#348

Post by megaman22 »

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #319
macrael wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Older employees are significantly more expensive for your employer provided health insurance in the US. Not sure how that translates to bigger co's but it's significant for small firms.

No women and no non-whites = no HR problems /s

You're being sarcastic, but...

A company of entirely 20-something dudes is not going to generate any sympathy. If there's a problem, it's not going to generate headlines or blow up outside the walls.

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#349

Post by humanrebar »

raz32dust wrote: post #140
combatentropy wrote: post #66

It doesn't make sense to me to discriminate against people with more experience. Can someone explain it to me? I have heard that companies like recent grads because they are (1) more malleable and (2) can be paid less. But neither of those reasons seem to me strong enough. I'm talking completely about the company's own interests. Let's address the first reason: malleability. A recent grad presumably will adopt the co…

Knowledge in the software industry tends to get outdated much faster than in other industries. While there are timeless software engineering practices that are good and evergreen, about 70% of my knowledge today will be outdated in 5 years. This is not true of other industries. Sure, other professionals need to keep themselves updated as well. But the percentage of knowledge that a bridge architect needs to update is…

> ...about 70% of my knowledge today will be outdated in 5 years...

I've been around for a while. Some knowledge has become useless, but I learned how to sniff out technology that's going nowhere and avoid it. Since then, I've rarely wasted my learning on things that become obsolete.

Besides, the most valuable knowledge is typically how product managers, salespeople, and people that set budgets think. That knowledge evolves much slower than javascript frameworks.

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#350

Post by grzm »

megaman22 wrote: post #348
dsfyu404ed wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No women and no non-whites = no HR problems /s

You're being sarcastic, but... A company of entirely 20-something dudes is not going to generate any sympathy. If there's a problem, it's not going to generate headlines or blow up outside the walls.

But what? Finish your statement.
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