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We Only Have Hours Left to Stop the NSA Expansion Bill

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Re: We Only Have Hours Left to Stop the NSA Expansion Bill

#161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>"Bonus points if you give it a name involving patriotism, freedom, economic or personal health, or a backromym that spells out the same." Indeed, and this "cognitive dissonance" technique is so widespread now that you can generally invert the message to find out the actual intention of the legislation is. Examples: If you are cutting taxes for the wealthy donor class say it is bill to "help the middle class and the…

It's hardly so black and white, and people's failure to recognize this and operate in a respectful middle ground is a large factor in our current situation (which is worsening). We've assimilated so many political positions into our cultural signaling subroutines that almost every issue is seen as "identity politics" nowadays. This occurs by design, because political profiteers are profited by creating clear boogeyme…

My original comment was only referring to devaluation of speech. But lets take the three examples that I used:

Trying to repeal health care provisions as your most pressing piece of legislation but not bothering to have an alternative plan to present to the population as a replacement.

Passing legislation which gives permanent tax breaks to corporations but then only temporary breaks to regular people(expires after 8 years.)

Repealing internet regulation in a monopolistic environment.

Please help me to understand how any of the above provides benefit to the average person? Where is the grey part of the spectrum I am not able to see. And by grey I mean the average voter being better off because of it.

I am not sure why you are reframing the context as left vs right. It's not about that, its about governments that represent people and not corporations and campaign contributions.

Re: We Only Have Hours Left to Stop the NSA Expansion Bill

#162

Is anyone else fatigued? The effort required, ontop of just having a normal functioning life, to parse and make decisions around potential future law is incredible. Isn't this what elected officials are ment to do on our behalf?

They are meant to do that, but corporations pay better.

Re: We Only Have Hours Left to Stop the NSA Expansion Bill

#163

Is there plan to bombard the american public on so many fronts that they accept mass surveillance? What the actual fuck is wrong with this country.

That's exactly it. It's also pretty hilarious that the GOP is trying to extend the FBI's power and oversight - given the current situation with their dear leader.

Seeing how Comey (and top collaborators) basically ignored Hillary Clinton's obvious crimes WRT security, it does seem odd.

Maybe they're buying some agents of their own, to even things out.

Re: We Only Have Hours Left to Stop the NSA Expansion Bill

#164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is at least the second post on this topic in which logfromblammo has suggested that people perform criminal acts. (S)he earlier suggested keying cars and cutting tires. Those are simply wrong and criminal.

I’m curious at what point civility breaks down in a failing state, at what level does his course of action make sense? I like to establish these limits before emotion can cloud judgement. He may be brash but he’s not wrong yet.

I don't think there ever is a discontinuity. It just slowly ramps up, such that the only ones who notice are the ones who just woke up from comas. Every line in the sand is crossed slowly, with shuffling feet, so the line is wiped out as it is approached. Watershed events that are a clear trigger or threshold are rare. Mostly, it just gets worse slowly enough that no one ever hits their limit and breaks.

That's how we got to 2017 from 1967, after all--one hour after another, without pause, for 50 years. And then one day, you think "WTF just happened? How did everything get so incredibly awesome and yet also completely awful at the same time?"

If you think, "Gee, I should have done Y way back when X happened," then you should probably be doing Y now, even long after X happened.

I think about how it must feel for ordinary people when important history is happening around them, and if they would have even noticed at the time. It probably feels a lot like a fish feels after biting down on the bait. Everything is fine and normal, then boom, something grabbed me and is pulling me and now the water is gone and some blobby hairy thing has its appendages stuck into my gills and I flop and squirm and flop some more and the water is still gone and everything's going dim and my mouth hurts and the blobby thing is cutting my belly open with its shiny claw and now I can't feel my body and a gull just ate my eye and is tugging at my guts and I can't even flop any more. And I... And it was all so fast... I want to go back...

At what point is it acceptable for the fish to start fighting? It has to start while it is still in the water, while it still can fight. But it doesn't yet know that it should. What do you do if the event that makes it perfectly clear that you should have been doing something all along is also the event that makes it impossible for you to do it? What if the event that would have retroactively justified your behavior never happens?

Re: We Only Have Hours Left to Stop the NSA Expansion Bill

#165
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kinda off-topic but 4,500 species are critically endangered right now Based on the fact that more than 99.9% of all the species are now extinct, how is this an alarming sign? It seems like a part of the natural evolutionary process.

You may find this pair of articles interesting: https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/we-dont-need-to-save-... https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2017/12/15/53e6147c-... Species do go extinct, but not at the rate we are experiencing today. Even if the current rate of species loss was equal to the historical rate, that does not mean that humans wish to live in such a natural state of chaos. Did American culture…

I think species have died at such rates before, during earlier mass extinction events. It's natural they happen once in a while.

If we always preserve what we have, there will be no room for something new to develop.

Re: We Only Have Hours Left to Stop the NSA Expansion Bill

#166
post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get that you're angry. That's totally valid. I'm also angry and also have violent fantasies. I'm certain that everyone does, its a psychology fact. But why not channel your destructive urges into dismantling internalized oppression? The ways that you and I go about maintaining these very structures we are each so angry about? I'm a musician. I once played at a fancy downtown club that took my band's working/middle…

Violence is a proven effective tool and it is used as a last resort (to be considered justified). There is no denying people are feeling powerless and not represented. Your method of protesting doesn't work if you care about the national debt, quantitative easing, inflation, interest rates, crony capitalism, the rent economy, the value of your money growing worthless day by day while the cost of living is artificiall…

Proven effective? To what end? And what kind of violence?

Also, b.t.w., I'm not trying to judge you if you think violence is effective. I'm just convinced that it's actually self-sabotaging in the long run.

The actions I'm describing are violent, but not in the war-mongerer's way. They're violent in the same sense that Slavoj Žižek (regardless of your opinion about him) says love is violent.

My point is not so much that our huge problems have easy, one-stop fixes, it's moreso that we often reinforce the bigger problems with a multitude of little, normal habits that we can exercise control over if we choose to.

Go ahead and stomp out those big bad enemies with your violence. Their seeds sprout daily in most of our hearts. After the fire, what's gonna grow back if we haven't learned to cultivate justice in a positive sense? The same old shit.

Paulo Friere writes about this in The Pedagogy of the Oppressed. Everyone in capitalist societies is educated to desire to become like the oppressor. Kids wanna grow up and be rich, have servants. What are we doing to break that cycle in ourselves?

My example was just one wake up call showing me that I do have some power. It's rare that you get to see that your actions have consequences. This one was dramatic for me. For the record, a lot of my musician peers are cultivating their own events these days instead of using the booze/drug clubs. It's a movement, and I was a small, real part of it.

Platitudes/things I believe are powerful:

Fix shit instead of tossing it. Go on regular hikes instead of flying to another country every time you need a break.

Cut out the petty shit talk about people. Stuff propagates fast and it only takes the right straw to break the camels back. Take care of yourself so you can shed your bitternesses. Practice forgiveness.

Don't take debt, only to pass its burden onto others. Don't encourage others to take debt. Don't tell young kids to take debt because it's "what adults do". When you do this, you're propagating the very thing you wish deep down to violently destroy.

Quit it with the "adultism".

You're awesome. Keep learning why, so we can be free of the burden of proving yourself by putting others down.

As for the housing thing... I understand that the solutions to this problem are radical and associated with stereotypes like "hippy" and "college student". We need to shed that. Here's an organization devoted to assisting people in building equitable housing relationships: https://coophousing.org/

Keep striving to look past peoples' educational degrees/class/race/culture/intelligence. Cut your superficial judgements out with the same violence you're imagining against "the system".

Learn to recognize non-traditional intelligence. Learn to have deep conversations with conventionally unintelligent people. If you think people with down's syndrome are dumb, you are enacting the oppression you hate.

In positive terms, keep striving to love and understand people, to be teachable, to be open hearted.

Walk/bus/bike more. Slow down.

> What do you do to address those issues? Not participate in the economy? Create your own currency, your own bank and somehow escape regulation? Vote?

As much as it's possible for you. But also: divest from inequitable businesses as much as possible. I mean this in a big way. For example: stop using amazon prime when ebay would be just as good. Use the slow shipping. That itself is a small, radical act.

Buy an old, used computer/phone, upgrade the ram, fix the little broken stuff.

Plant a garden.

Last but not least, call your representative and tell them we want score voting in the primaries.

Re: We Only Have Hours Left to Stop the NSA Expansion Bill

#167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get that you're angry. That's totally valid. I'm also angry and also have violent fantasies. I'm certain that everyone does, its a psychology fact. But why not channel your destructive urges into dismantling internalized oppression? The ways that you and I go about maintaining these very structures we are each so angry about? I'm a musician. I once played at a fancy downtown club that took my band's working/middle…

What can you do if that fancy club that prefers rich people takes a cut of all your performances, no matter where you play?

Make house shows. Use alternative venues. Don't give them your energy.

Re: We Only Have Hours Left to Stop the NSA Expansion Bill

#168
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may find this pair of articles interesting: https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/we-dont-need-to-save-... https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2017/12/15/53e6147c-... Species do go extinct, but not at the rate we are experiencing today. Even if the current rate of species loss was equal to the historical rate, that does not mean that humans wish to live in such a natural state of chaos. Did American culture…

I think species have died at such rates before, during earlier mass extinction events. It's natural they happen once in a while. If we always preserve what we have, there will be no room for something new to develop.

Sure. A mass extinction event which will take humans with it. Then a few million years down the line new speciation will fill all of the ecological niches in whatever equilibrium arises. The planet and life themselves are unlikely to be completely wiped out, absent some future technology we can’t yet imagine.

As long as you don’t have any attachment to anything more narrow than “all life on earth” (e.g. your family, language, city, country, culture, species, ...) thriving for a long time into the future, there’s no reason not to just shrug at whatever impending apocalypse.

Re: We Only Have Hours Left to Stop the NSA Expansion Bill

#169

"We only have hours"? What are we supposed to do in those hours? Make phone calls that won't get through? Tweet? Forget it. Senators and congressmen don't fear their constituents so they're not going to listen to their constituents.

Let me clarify. By "fear", I mean fear of losing their seats, not their heads. Clearly, they don't fear either but I'm only implying that government would work better if elected positions were easier to lose.

Re: We Only Have Hours Left to Stop the NSA Expansion Bill

#170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's hardly so black and white, and people's failure to recognize this and operate in a respectful middle ground is a large factor in our current situation (which is worsening). We've assimilated so many political positions into our cultural signaling subroutines that almost every issue is seen as "identity politics" nowadays. This occurs by design, because political profiteers are profited by creating clear boogeyme…

My original comment was only referring to devaluation of speech. But lets take the three examples that I used: Trying to repeal health care provisions as your most pressing piece of legislation but not bothering to have an alternative plan to present to the population as a replacement. Passing legislation which gives permanent tax breaks to corporations but then only temporary breaks to regular people(expires after 8…

I was trying to keep this short. :C See last section for tl;dr.

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Health care repeal: Insurance premiums have skyrocketed since the ACA went into effect. Just this year, I know a small business owner whose premium for high-deductible family plan has gone up 2.5x. My employer-provided health insurance premium increased a little (relatively at least), but both the individual and family deductibles jumped by about 40%.

Repealing the ACA doesn't include artificial price controls, etc., but the common belief is that the ACA is one of the biggest reasons that premiums have gone up, and that repealing it will allow them to come back down.

I understand that the causal relationship is arguable, but you asked for a perspective on how it helps the average person. The perspective is that the average person who isn't getting subsidized health insurance is getting raked over the coals (along with their employer, who usually pays 60-80% of the monthly premium), and that perspective is absolutely reflected in the real world where people are being forced to pay thousands more for less than they had last year.

"Without a replacement" isn't considered a big issue because it's not like repealing the ACA shuts down the medical facilities/industry in any real way. They'll continue to operate and health care will still be available. Everyone is not going to die because the medical system reverts to the regulatory structure that was in place five years ago. The insurance situation will get better for some and worse for others, but that's at worst a lateral movement, and it's arguably a positive because it allows people to forgo health insurance altogether again, which means the insurers will have to offer something for the "Well I'm not even going to bother" crowd.

This is another situation where polarization has caused us to miss the forest for the trees. The medical-industrial complex in this country is completely out of control. Completely. Everyone knows this. We need an elegant solution (and most conservatives don't consider a blank check from the government elegant), but we're not going to get one with each group playing off of each other and their politicians just toggling the situation in favor of their base every 4-8 years.

We have to hold our politicians accountable and demand something that is workable and stable for everyone. The heart of the matter is that the insurance companies have got to go, but we're never going to get other traditional conservatives on board with that if we don't engage in a real dialogue and build up trust.

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Permanent tax breaks to corporations with temporary to non-corporations is a polarizing misdirection. People comprise corporations and cutting corporate taxes means that more of that money is available for normal people who've earned it to use and deploy, rather than for the government to appropriate and reserve for the purposes of a handful of unmovable bureaucrats. Most conservatives consider this a default good.

The permanent nature of the corporate tax cut is not an insult unless you choose to make it one. Every dollar of corporate tax does not have to be replaced by a dollar of individual tax; the goal is to pay less tax, not just to shift it around.

If the the corporate tax rate was too high, it should be brought down, regardless of the implementation details on the individual tax side. The overall goal is to keep direct taxes minimized in general.

How does this help the average citizen? First, there is individual tax relief already baked in for at least 8 years. That's an immediate tax savings and that's great. Second, allowing resources to flow to the people who are capable of commanding them from the marketplace allows these people to expand their operations, hire others, develop new technology and goods, etc. etc. -- all the basics of our economy. And perhaps the key difference is that conservatives see themselves not just as potential indirect beneficiaries from a prosperous and competitive marketplace, but direct beneficiaries as shareholders (i.e., anyone with a 401k or retirement account), entrepreneurs (supposedly many people on HN), and full market participants. They don't see it as zero-sum, where one person's prosperity is their poverty.

That sentiment, that access to the marketplace is unequal and that corporate tax savings do not benefit individuals, may be a good perspective or vein to hit on re: unspinning a polarized atmosphere. I think it has been taken to extremes on both ends, with liberal-leaning persons seeing corporations as vicious vampires and conservative-leaning persons seeing them as infallible bastions of righteousness. We have to get back to the middle, where we can help wipe the biases off each other's windows and see things clearly.

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Net neutrality is an example of polarization run amok, because I think that there would be a lot more bipartisan support for a real solution if there wasn't a sentiment that agreeing with "the other side" was an automatic stain. Some conservatives understand the issue and oppose net neutrality for idealistic or technical reasons, but I think that most people who aren't simply repeating a party line know that something is broken and needs fixed one way or the other, whether they agree with the technical implementation under Title II or not.

To claim that this year's net neutrality repeal will have a significant immediate effect, positive or negative, is reaching, IMO. To the extent that telcos feel emboldened by the FCC's ruling, they will move ahead conservatively, because they know the backlash is dangerous. I don't expect to see any substantial user-facing changes any time in the next five years, and rather just expect the telcos to go back to using their ability to prioritize traffic as a bargaining chip with big tech companies, who are consuming a lot more bandwidth than would be feasible under a metered billing model.

Title II is a large regulatory burden, and rules like net neutrality are concerning because while they may stop Comcast from acting as scummy as humanly possible, they can also be wielded to quash small local ISPs (which, on more than one occasion, have been the only way I've been able to get decent internet access due to collisions of incompetence on the part of property owners and telcos) or emerging networks that are sufficient for lightweight transmission, and try to implement useful packet prioritization to stop whales from hogging all of the network's bandwidth.

Conservatives also hold minimal regulation as a principle, not because they want to hurt anyone whom a regulation may help, but because they've seen the other side of the coin, where big companies hijack well-intentioned programs or laws to quash competitors, technical advancements, and so forth.

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These are subjective perspectives informed by individual life experiences, and it's necessarily colored by our private biases, and that's exactly why we need each other. We need to keep each other honest, assuming good faith, and helping one another see where something is going too far afield. This can't be done under the default pretense or assumption that the other person is inherently wrong, evil, disingenuous, stupid, or deserving of punishment. That baseline self-awareness that we all need tempering, and that baseline respect for others that allows us to accept it, must be restored.

Most of the time, people on either side of the aisle are not going to end up fully agreeing with each other, and that's the whole point. We have to be able to disagree and accept compromises without impugning the character of the other.

On the grand scheme of things, it's only a small handful of people who are actively malicious, and the best gift we give them is taking their bait and bitterly bickering over intractable issues derived from personal background and context, instead of working to foster collaboration and compromise, grateful for the benefits of healthy and diverse civil discourse.

The polarized atmosphere allows manipulators to go hog wild, whether they're cold bureaucrats or greedy industrialists, because there are bad guys in both camps (in fact, these guys usually end up teaming up against the masses). We have to stop wasting rage on other people of goodwill while the true exploiters make off with the jewels.

At this rate, we won't realize what's happened until everything valuable is gone and the building is a smoldering ash heap.

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