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Pass-Thru Income Deduction

evergreensmallbusiness.com

41–50 of 94 posts

Re: Pass-Thru Income Deduction

#41

One of the worst things about the current tax code (and soon-to-be new tax law) is the cost of compliance. You can argue about high tax or low tax and who should pay more than whom, but cost and time to comply does not create any value and is an artificial way that we make our country less competitive. This article is a clear example of that, laying out 10 different things you need to know with complicated formulas f…

completely agree with this sentiment. I've often wished a test city/state would be allowed to just do a flat tax and completely remove all tax code and see what happens. Obviously the convolutedness is a barrier to entry to small startups and a unfair advantage for established market entities. Also I'd love to see an experiment on a zero tax law that basically amounted to no taxes unless the business/person earned a…

> I've often wished a test city/state would be allowed to just do a flat tax

I don't want a flat tax (as in "all income taxed at 15%," let's say) because a flat tax has an unfair impact on people at lower income levels. But, otherwise, I agree with your entire post. Here's my ideal law, with the caveat that I have zero legal training beyond six seasons of Law and Order and four seasons of Suits:

(1) The following marginal rates are established:

(Emphasis here: these numbers are made up for demonstration purposes only.)

- $0 through $13,000: 0%

- $13,001 through $25,000: 5%

- $25,001 through $46,000: 8%

- and so on

(2) All money earned, by whatever means and from whatever source, by a person or legal entity resident in the United States shall be subject to the tax specified above.

(3) The Internal Revenue Service shall, no later than the 15th of April of each calendar year (or the next day following the business day after the 15th of April if the 15th of April falls on a Saturday, Sunday, or federal holiday), prepare and mail to each holder of an EIN, each person for whom any tax or income declaration form (such as W2, 1098, 1099, and similar) has been submitted to the IRS, a statement of what the IRS believes the taxpayer owes or is due as a refund.

(4) If the IRS has notified the taxpayer that the IRS believes the taxpayer is due a refund, the taxpayer may notify the IRS of a financial account located inside the United States into which such refund shall be deposited or may request a paper check for such refund or, under such rules as the Secretary shall provide, make a request for United States Savings Bonds. Any request must be made within five years of the date the taxpayer knew or reasonably should have known that the refund was due, otherwise the refund is the property of the Treasury absent a showing of exigence.

(5) If the IRS has notified the taxpayer that the IRS believes the taxpayer owes additional taxes, the taxpayer shall make payment to the IRS no later than the 15th of July following receipt of said notice (or the next day following the business day after the 15th of July if the 15th of July falls on a Saturday, Sunday, or federal holiday) by providing the IRS with debit instructions for a financial account located inside the United States or via a paper check or other form of transfer of dollars.

(6) In the case that the taxpayer disagrees with a notice provided by the IRS under paragraphs 5 or 6, the taxpayer shall, no later than the 15th of July following receipt of said notice (or the next day following the business day after the 15th of July if the 15th of July falls on a Saturday, Sunday, or federal holiday), file the tax forms designated by the IRS under such rules as the Secretary shall provide, to indicate what the taxpayer believes is the proper tax due or refund owed. If the taxpayer still owes additional tax, the tax payment shall be due at the time of filing. The IRS shall have 120 days to respond, otherwise the taxpayer's submission is deemed valid and binding upon the IRS.

(7) There is no paragraph seven.

Re: Pass-Thru Income Deduction

#42
Super nit pick:

Is it just me or is it a bit disheartening that they have defined this using the term `thru` which google defines as `informal spelling of through`?

Isn't a legal document about as formal as one can get? I'm just worried it opens opportunity for confusion from the ambiguousness of language.

Slippery slope: Next thing we'll see is a law defining how much of a deduction you get with the money with wings emoji.

Re: Pass-Thru Income Deduction

#43
post #34

One of the worst things about the current tax code (and soon-to-be new tax law) is the cost of compliance. You can argue about high tax or low tax and who should pay more than whom, but cost and time to comply does not create any value and is an artificial way that we make our country less competitive. This article is a clear example of that, laying out 10 different things you need to know with complicated formulas f…

Congress is full of lawyers who assume that everyone has access to lawyers. That's why everything is so complex. In reality the big guys have lawyers on retainer and can handle the laws and the little guy is at a disadvantage. The same happens in a lot of companies. IT develops rules for IT people and the regular user is screwed.

> Congress is full of lawyers who assume that everyone has access to lawyers. That's why everything is so complex. In reality the big guys have lawyers on retainer and can handle the laws and the little guy is at a disadvantage.

Generally these changes have some sort of champion requesting them and don't just arise from the ether. I'm not sure we can explain it all away as Congress not realizing that their decisions will advantage large business interests at the expense of smaller ones, particularly when the beneficiaries are also sponsors.

Re: Pass-Thru Income Deduction

#44
The plan would also provide many pass-through businesses with a 20 percent deduction for pass-through business income. Specified service business would be ineligible, except for households with taxable income below $157,500 for single filers and $315,000 for married filers. This provision reduces revenue by $289 billion. The pass-through provisions expire at the end of 2025. https://taxfoundation.org/final-tax-cuts-and-jobs-act-detail...

Re: Pass-Thru Income Deduction

#45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

completely agree with this sentiment. I've often wished a test city/state would be allowed to just do a flat tax and completely remove all tax code and see what happens. Obviously the convolutedness is a barrier to entry to small startups and a unfair advantage for established market entities. Also I'd love to see an experiment on a zero tax law that basically amounted to no taxes unless the business/person earned a…

> I've often wished a test city/state would be allowed to just do a flat tax I don't want a flat tax (as in "all income taxed at 15%," let's say) because a flat tax has an unfair impact on people at lower income levels. But, otherwise, I agree with your entire post. Here's my ideal law, with the caveat that I have zero legal training beyond six seasons of Law and Order and four seasons of Suits: (1) The following mar…

Define earned.

Re: Pass-Thru Income Deduction

#46

One of the worst things about the current tax code (and soon-to-be new tax law) is the cost of compliance. You can argue about high tax or low tax and who should pay more than whom, but cost and time to comply does not create any value and is an artificial way that we make our country less competitive. This article is a clear example of that, laying out 10 different things you need to know with complicated formulas f…

completely agree with this sentiment. I've often wished a test city/state would be allowed to just do a flat tax and completely remove all tax code and see what happens. Obviously the convolutedness is a barrier to entry to small startups and a unfair advantage for established market entities. Also I'd love to see an experiment on a zero tax law that basically amounted to no taxes unless the business/person earned a…

Flat tax rates end up being pretty unfair when we're thinking about individuals because the less money you make the more it hurts you to give up 30% of your income. Maybe, arguably, flat tax would be OK for businesses, but it would be very regressive if applied to personal income tax.

Re: Pass-Thru Income Deduction

#47

Does this change the incentives on how S-Corps structure salary versus distribution? Sometimes people keep salary low (but still "reasonable") and distributions high to limit FICA. Other times people inflate their salary (and keep distributions low) to be able to contribute more to 401k profit-matches and social security. Since it's a pass-through, it seems like taxable income might be roughly the same either way, so…

> to be able to contribute more to... social security

I don't think that makes a whole lot of sense. Do people actually do that?

Re: Pass-Thru Income Deduction

#48

if you are happy that you can save some money this way, i think you are super lame. i am sad that over paid people like me and most of yall are now even less responsible for helping poor people (among other things, i know... )

You can always donate the surplus to private entities.

I feel like the people decrying the tax bill do not consider that an adequate means of addressing the problem.

Re: Pass-Thru Income Deduction

#49
post #8

Thanks for posting this, I have been looking for just such a summary. I think I will be a significant beneficiary of this provision (as I currently understand it, anyway), but I agree with other commenters that I wish we could just make things simpler and more fair. Over the last 10 years I have had experience with small business taxes, small business retirement plans, and various estate-tax avoidance schemes. The ta…

"I agree with other commenters that I wish we could just make things simpler and more fair."

That's what was so nice about a pass-through entity: It was both politically and revenue neutral. All of the profits flowed through to the taxpayer and the politics and revenue occurred there. Terms like "fairness" had no relevance to them.

It could not have been simpler and it was completely outside the sphere of the political discussion on taxes.

But now, by answering a question that nobody asked, the new tax code politicizes the passthrough entity and, in my opinion, will eventually lead to its discontinuance - or at the very least, layers of complication added every time we revisit this topic.

I benefit maximally from this change to passthrough entities but it is a benefit I never asked for and that will hurt me (and all of us) in the long term.

Re: Pass-Thru Income Deduction

#50

Does this change the incentives on how S-Corps structure salary versus distribution? Sometimes people keep salary low (but still "reasonable") and distributions high to limit FICA. Other times people inflate their salary (and keep distributions low) to be able to contribute more to 401k profit-matches and social security. Since it's a pass-through, it seems like taxable income might be roughly the same either way, so…

It doesn’t change the incentive structure much. This will lop 20% off of each owner’s taxable income after their other deductions. So you’ll still want to pay on the low side of “reasonable” while still optimizing for 401k contributions.
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