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Britain is, and was, deluded about its negotiating power with the EU

blogs.lse.ac.uk

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Re: Britain is, and was, deluded about its negotiating power with the EU

#61

Post by jjaredsimpson »

jstanley wrote: post #46
sz4kerto wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because _everything_ that happens between countries (and between the UK an the EU) is driven by treaties and agreements. Simple example: if UK leaves without agreements and treaties then there can be no flights from the UK to the EU. This sounds crazy but we have tens of thousands of bilateral agreements that drive even the most fundamental things, and they can be (and are) affected by e.g. the EU membership. Or UK c…

> Or UK citizens would not be able to buy products from the EU because there would be no agreements in place that'd allow companies in the EU to export goods. This is where you and I fundamentally disagree about how trade works. If I want to trade with a person in a foreign country, I don't see why our governments need to even know, let alone come up with some agreement. If the foreign person and I can agree a deal,…

This isn't a real argument. What if you agreed to buy slaves from a foreign person?

Governments obviously have a real interest in what their citizen do regardless of where that activity takes place.

Re: Britain is, and was, deluded about its negotiating power with the EU

#62

Post by interdrift »

WhirlingBirdz wrote: post #52
interdrift wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not true. Brexit is good for the UK and the EU. Now finally clowns like Farage will be exposed for their 'rebel for good' fake ideals. The British public will either accept it's own sentence following decades of 'the bad bureaucrats in Brussels' fake news or come to realize that cooperation at both economical and political on large scale is the way to move forward.

Brexit isn't about Farage. As you say, he is a clown, a distraction, and a totem for the anger of middle-class metropolitans. Brexit was about the working-class of the UK who voted to leave the EU, and their reasons for doing that.

Again, not true. Voting percentage was - 1. Majority leave in poor areas 2. Majority leave in the older population. 3. London voted remain. Reasons? We all know the reasons, and I'm not even going to go into the superiority complex that these people have.

Re: Britain is, and was, deluded about its negotiating power with the EU

#63

Post by gandreani »

jstanley wrote: post #46
sz4kerto wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because _everything_ that happens between countries (and between the UK an the EU) is driven by treaties and agreements. Simple example: if UK leaves without agreements and treaties then there can be no flights from the UK to the EU. This sounds crazy but we have tens of thousands of bilateral agreements that drive even the most fundamental things, and they can be (and are) affected by e.g. the EU membership. Or UK c…

> Or UK citizens would not be able to buy products from the EU because there would be no agreements in place that'd allow companies in the EU to export goods. This is where you and I fundamentally disagree about how trade works. If I want to trade with a person in a foreign country, I don't see why our governments need to even know, let alone come up with some agreement. If the foreign person and I can agree a deal,…

You're absolutely right. There's no such things as tariffs, customs, border inspections, fines, fees or other such leverage a country can exact upon it's citizens and businesses to enforce foreign trade rules...

Re: Britain is, and was, deluded about its negotiating power with the EU

#64

Post by PeterisP »

gaius wrote: post #13
Scorponok wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the EU could then reject those terms and not having a trade deal would be vastly more damaging to the UK than the EU.

No it can't - it's as bound by Article 50 as the UK is.

Article 50 doesn't require a free trade deal to exist after the Brexit, the "no deal" scenario is what happens if Britain exits without a replacement deal, and it's considered (by both sides) an outcome that's bad for UK.

Re: Britain is, and was, deluded about its negotiating power with the EU

#65

Post by namelost »

1undo wrote: post #39
namelost wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say to your friends, "Let's share the cost of dinner". Then when you decide you don't like the dinner, walk out halfway through, leaving your friends to pick up the bill for what you ordered. Once word gets round, not only your friends but nobody is going to go out to dinner with you ever again.

Yes, I agree to "share the cost of dinner". But I don't get the food that I ordered, and eat very little of it. And I watch others eat a lot of food without contributing to the tab. I then want to leave the dinner which is only right

It doesn't matter. Once you have made a commitment to pay a share of something, you pay it.

What would you price the reputation of the UK at? I hope more than £39bn. All the other countries of the world are watching the UK's actions.

Re: Britain is, and was, deluded about its negotiating power with the EU

#66

Post by ZenoArrow »

dguaraglia wrote: post #50
WhirlingBirdz wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Other explanations for why the working-class voted for Brexit are available.

Is this really a new norm, where troll accounts are created to push bigoted talking points? This account is 9 minutes old. The other day I had a similar “interaction” with a 30 minute old account. Who is paying for this campaign?

My account is 1881 days old, and I'd happily say exactly the same as WhirlingBirdz, with zero intention to troll.

Re: Britain is, and was, deluded about its negotiating power with the EU

#67

Post by Anderkent »

jstanley wrote: post #46
sz4kerto wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because _everything_ that happens between countries (and between the UK an the EU) is driven by treaties and agreements. Simple example: if UK leaves without agreements and treaties then there can be no flights from the UK to the EU. This sounds crazy but we have tens of thousands of bilateral agreements that drive even the most fundamental things, and they can be (and are) affected by e.g. the EU membership. Or UK c…

> Or UK citizens would not be able to buy products from the EU because there would be no agreements in place that'd allow companies in the EU to export goods. This is where you and I fundamentally disagree about how trade works. If I want to trade with a person in a foreign country, I don't see why our governments need to even know, let alone come up with some agreement. If the foreign person and I can agree a deal,…

It works on reciprocity. If you never consider disallowing trade with some countries, you cannot use it as an argument when negotiating access to other country markets; and so you open yourself to exploitation via dues etc. And maybe if no one hindered trade in any way, everyone would be better; but you have no ability to decide what everyone does - only what you do yourself.

Plus, there's actual reasons to think completely open, unhindered, and uninspected trade is not desirable. Think human trafficking, etc.

Re: Britain is, and was, deluded about its negotiating power with the EU

#68

Post by Myrmornis »

dguaraglia wrote: post #50
WhirlingBirdz wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Other explanations for why the working-class voted for Brexit are available.

Is this really a new norm, where troll accounts are created to push bigoted talking points? This account is 9 minutes old. The other day I had a similar “interaction” with a 30 minute old account. Who is paying for this campaign?

On the other hand, it wasn't a very trollish comment. Certainly not bigoted, unless it has been edited since you commented! Would you like to revise that description?

Another explanation of the young account phenomenon would be that there is nowadays a larger proportion of people who read the site without accounts and therefore that more comments are from first-time commenters. Perhaps certain types of stories attract more first time commenters. But if it is true that there are more comments from young accounts nowadays, I do agree that that's interesting. The data's available to answer that I believe; anyone know?

Re: Britain is, and was, deluded about its negotiating power with the EU

#69

Post by [deleted] »

gaius wrote: post #17
Dayshine wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the same reason your friends will refuse to go to dinner with you if you skip on the bill. There are literally hundreds of collaborations between UK organisations and EU organisations. If we just stop our promised contributions to all of them they're not going to trust us again.

For the same reason your friends will refuse to go to dinner with you if you skip on the bill. What about if you refuse to split the bill for the next dinner, to which you aren't invited?

[deleted]

Re: Britain is, and was, deluded about its negotiating power with the EU

#70

Post by Anderkent »

jstanley wrote: post #51
toyg wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I then want to leave the dinner which is only right But you would at least pay for what you ordered. Anyone just upping and leaving would be considered very rude, and nobody would invite him ever again.

But he's already paid for far more than what he's eaten. If anything, the others at the table should be giving him money back.

Well, the dinner metaphor breaks down here. It's almost certain that the access to the EU workforce and trade markets have benefited the UK much more than the pocket change it pays into the EU; but it's hard to put an exact number on those things.
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