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What Happened to Yahoo

paulgraham.com

91–100 of 282 posts

Re: What Happened to Yahoo

#91
post #74

"Most technology companies eventually get taken over by suits and middle managers." Interesting statement. I suspect this process is well under way at Google these days. But why does this happen? Is it just that once companies grow large enough, you need middle managers, (who then consolidate power and control)? Is there a more nuanced explanation?

"I suspect this process is well under way at Google these days." What's your basis for this speculation?

[deleted]

Re: What Happened to Yahoo

#92
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So it's hackerly...

No, it's not. That gets at the very essence of my original comment. One of the assertions in the article is that a hacker culture is a necessary ingredient for a successful technology company. I see Apple as a counterexample to this argument. And it's a counterexample that shouldn't be ignored. Apple is driven by design (industrial design, product design, graphic design). They think about products, not technology. Th…

One of the assertions in the article is that a hacker culture is a necessary ingredient for a successful technology company.

No it isn't. I said that you either need that or to pay people a lot or to be in an interesting industry where there are no competitors who have hacker cultures. If Apple doesn't have a hacker culture, then it would probably be an example of the latter.

Re: What Happened to Yahoo

#93

I think there's something to be said for focusing on what the market rewards, and clearly the market wasn't rewarding yahoo for having great technology in 1998. Nor did it reward Google for having great enterprise search. You can't fault Jerry and David for not seeing search when the market had clearly supported banners with no basis for search as a viable model yet.

You can't fault Jerry and David for not seeing search when the market had clearly supported banners with no basis for search as a viable model yet.

I disagree. Where were those banners shown? Search results pages. The reason people went to Yahoo! was to find stuff. That's the reason Yahoo! became Yahoo in the first place. The Yahoo founders made an invisible, scatterbrained web accessible by giving some sort of list index to it. Google later improved the sorting of the index, but Yahoo was first to build a large, searchable index.

Re: What Happened to Yahoo

#94

[edit: this thread has some insightful replies by others that are worth reading.] I'm sorry, this may be PG's backyard, but I've gotta call bullshit. Note: I am not a Yahoo employee or corporate shill. 1. "At Yahoo this death spiral started early." Apparently this death spiral took TWELVE YEARS (the WWW is 20 years old), and Yahoo is still #1 (or #2) in terms of total properties on the web. How is this a death spiral…

When pg writes "Microsoft is dead" (and the outroar over that from MS apologists sounded a lot like your comment, angry capital letters and all) or "Yahoo is in a death spiral", he's talking about potential for growth, not necessarily short term feasibility as a profitable business. Yahoo is irrelevant to the Valley because by and large their stuff is old hat used by middle aged soccer moms in Nebraska. Lots of compa…

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1596907

Re: What Happened to Yahoo

#95
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So it's hackerly...

No, it's not. That gets at the very essence of my original comment. One of the assertions in the article is that a hacker culture is a necessary ingredient for a successful technology company. I see Apple as a counterexample to this argument. And it's a counterexample that shouldn't be ignored. Apple is driven by design (industrial design, product design, graphic design). They think about products, not technology. Th…

I don't think what pg means by "hackerly culture" is any different from what you said. It sounds like Apple is doing exactly what pg tells hackers to do: make something people want. "Hackerly culture" to me implies that you have people ("hackers") who are able to explore the space of possibilities and invent new things rather than just building them to some businessman's specification. It's not essential that you vent a bunch of experimental Google Labs projects out onto the world to have a hackerly culture--Apple just aborts more of its false starts in the womb. (Steve Jobs said in an interview once that one of the things Apple does best is deciding which of their projects go forward or not--they had a promising PDA a few years back but stopped development prior to release because they didn't think the PDA market was worthwhile at the time compared to portable music.)

Re: What Happened to Yahoo

#96
post #43
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, there are plenty of great hackers at Apple. That doesn't mean the company has a "hacker-centric culture", though. Does Apple make "a point of hiring programmers even for jobs that would not ordinarily consist of programming, like HR and marketing", like the article mentions about Facebook? No way.

One caveat: best technical recruiters are former programmers (it's an automatic plus if a recruiter tells me "I'll take your LaTeX resume, I used it a lot in grad school").

I can attest this.

I got called from Google during 2006. The HR guy screened me on the phone with all TCP/IP questions. I was amazed because he knew so much about TCP/IP and UNIX socket. It turned out that he was a former software engineer in Bell Lab/Lucent. It has been the best initial phone screen that I ever have.

Re: What Happened to Yahoo

#97
post #74

"Most technology companies eventually get taken over by suits and middle managers." Interesting statement. I suspect this process is well under way at Google these days. But why does this happen? Is it just that once companies grow large enough, you need middle managers, (who then consolidate power and control)? Is there a more nuanced explanation?

"I suspect this process is well under way at Google these days." What's your basis for this speculation?

Having worked there, it is definitely very much under way. A great indicator is probably how desirable a company is on the list of Top Companies for MBA's to Work For: http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/mba100/2009/full_list...

Re: What Happened to Yahoo

#98
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So it's hackerly...

No, it's not. That gets at the very essence of my original comment. One of the assertions in the article is that a hacker culture is a necessary ingredient for a successful technology company. I see Apple as a counterexample to this argument. And it's a counterexample that shouldn't be ignored. Apple is driven by design (industrial design, product design, graphic design). They think about products, not technology. Th…

Apple has many core competencies other than software, including hardware design, marketing, and retail. But the common theme I see between them is that they refuse to do things the way everyone else does, and that they hire the best and brightest to work on their problems. Also, they never accept that something can't be done. To me, this sounds very hackerly, just applied to different domains.

Re: What Happened to Yahoo

#99
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So it's hackerly...

No, it's not. That gets at the very essence of my original comment. One of the assertions in the article is that a hacker culture is a necessary ingredient for a successful technology company. I see Apple as a counterexample to this argument. And it's a counterexample that shouldn't be ignored. Apple is driven by design (industrial design, product design, graphic design). They think about products, not technology. Th…

Maybe saying that hackers want to work with other hackers isn't general enough? People who are good at what they do attract others who are also good at what they do. While it's true that working with the best programmers is a draw, so is working with the best artists or graphic designers or physicists. Mutual respect can cross disciplines.

Re: What Happened to Yahoo

#100
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what will Facebook overlook? Maybe location? Was Facebook's failed acquisition of Foursquare like Yahoo's non acquisition of Google?

Privacy, perhaps.

Privacy and social networking are naturally opposing ideas--social networking is all about sharing information with people and privacy is all about keeping information from people. That's like saying Google ("organize the world's information") overlooked the importance of disorganization or ignorance. It won't be privacy at all that Facebook overlooks, it'll be something completely orthogonal to that axis.

It is, however, true that Facebook is unlike Google in that, while nearly everyone wants to find information, not everyone wants to share information with other people.

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