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The Google-Facebook Duopoly Threatens Diversity of Thought

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Re: The Google-Facebook Duopoly Threatens Diversity of Thought

#131

It's very concerning that there is so much influence concentrated within such few hands. However I have to ask - would the WSJ would be so concerned if Google or Facebook were conservative leaning outlets? Normally the WSJ defends this kind of duopoly kind of thing - if either Google or Facebook had some sort of right side leaning the WSJ would be preaching to us about the genius of capitalism and the wisdom of the m…

This is exactly why "viewpoint diversity" is something people are increasingly concerned about. The basic premise is: we all engage in motivated reasoning. We all accept weak arguments sometimes if they reinforce or flatter our existing world view. If we shut out all dissenting views, we'll let lots of bullshit go unchallenged because we were never forced to actually defend our beliefs. So I think it's totally fair t…

I appreciate your thoughtful, reasonable and balanced response. It also treats the opposing viewpoint, the WSJ's opinion, with a degree of intellectual integrity.

Your point about 'blind spots' though is a very gentle jab to my larger point. I don't believe this is a 'blind spot'. My point is more basic - I don't think the WSJ has any real intellectual integrity.

In all honesty I think its bad from a viewpoint diversity to have such a small number of outlets control this much of the flow of information. And so if this was a real concern of the WSJ then maybe they would take that approach to very similar and present concern - the purchase of Tribune Media by Sinclar. Tribune Media owns 40+ TV stations. Sinclair owns at least 100 stations. In some cities Sinclair owns 3 stations. Certainly if the WSJ cares about 'viewpoint diversity' they would be concerned about a single company owning that much of the media landscape.

Except they don't take issue with Sinclair the same way they have concerns of Google/Facebook. As a matter of fact the WSJ probably loves the Sinclair merger. I disagree with your point, I do not believe this is a blind spot. I think its much simpler.

WSJ doesn't like the Facebook/Google duopoly because they represent a viewpoint they don't like, a more left or liberal viewpoint. And they do at least tacitly approve of the Sinclair merger because Sinclair does have a viewpoint they agree with, a more conservative one.

There is no intellectual heft to "we don't like it when they do to us what we do to them". So the WSJ has to manufacture some phony principled argument that under normal circumstances would contradict their typical position.

I'm not here to argue the for or against the government intervention trying to prevent a narrowing of the diversity of opinion. I'm saying the WSJ does not give a crap about diversity. They have no real ideals. They only care when their side has a disadvantage.

I can't read more than the first paragraph due to the paywall. But I do think that the WSJ is being intellectually dishonest when they try to advocate against Google/Facebook narrowing the diversity of opinions when its more like "we don't like it when the other side can crowd us out'. The WSJ hates opinion diversity, unless it is their own.

Re: The Google-Facebook Duopoly Threatens Diversity of Thought

#132
post #122

It's very concerning that there is so much influence concentrated within such few hands. However I have to ask - would the WSJ would be so concerned if Google or Facebook were conservative leaning outlets? Normally the WSJ defends this kind of duopoly kind of thing - if either Google or Facebook had some sort of right side leaning the WSJ would be preaching to us about the genius of capitalism and the wisdom of the m…

Nonsense. You think because WSJ is pro-business, they would "normally defend a duopoly kind of thing"? It is possible to be generally pro-business while also critizing kinda-deceptive business models with kinda-unchecked power.

If they really had any principle they would take a similar stance against the Sinclair/Tribune merger. But they won't.

Because Sinclair is a conservative new outlet. It has somewhat similar opinion on politics that the WSJ has. It has said nothing and most likely favors the Sinclair merger. It opposes Facebook/Google duopoly. Why the inconsistency? Because the WSJ sees the F/G duopoly supporting political opinions it does not like.

I'm not really asking, the answer is obvious. It's because the WSJ editorial section actually has no real principle or integrity on this issue.

Re: The Google-Facebook Duopoly Threatens Diversity of Thought

#133
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their product is the advertising platform, so the price-raising should be evaluated there. Their consumer "products" eg newsfeed, mail, messenger, search etc are just mechanisms for demographic gathering for the purposes of advertisement sales, or for direct advertisement delivery.

Since Google's entire ad-platform is based on the 2nd bid price auction and they have no control over the prices that advertisers bid, I don't see how they can be raising prices other than making their delivery platforms more valuable to the end consumer.

One way they raise prices is artificial shortages and altering supply/demand in a way that favors them.

The only side that is really a "free market" is content advertising because they don't control all the levers of optimization... but it too will bite your ass and favor them in both marketing and publisher suffering.

On google search, they can invoke quality score, sort scoring, auction optimization and create a funnel/flow that advertisers must continually optimize against much to the favor of Google.

They also change their TOS to be beneficial to their algorithm all the time now. Take the recent 200% budget change, they can now spend 200% of your budget and they optimize this 200% spend over long(er) terms. Seems to be removing the human touch and favoring the algorithm.

They also optimize their CPA to be a black box. I recently switched to CPA because they told me to. What you learn the hard way is that their pricing is modeled in their favor and over averages/terms that benefit them. When you say you want a $1.00 CPA you're not protected against paying exponentially more than that... They even trick you by getting you to update google analytics with "smart actions" that only add bull crap as to what a CPA/conversion is - once again in their favor

All of this seems to just scare away the smaller buyers because they can't compete when industry pricing and averaging excludes them from being able to plan/budget and pay for advertising accordingly.

The only people with the pockets to play the game are the encumbered organizations that also do other trades with Google - such as large purchases of Google G! Suite, Large deals with Google cloud or their data/analytics services.

Login to google adwords, it says "hey switch to CPA" then eventually "hey, use smart campaigns" and sooner or later you can't even control the crap your buying because you can't block/filter/target anymore because the borg is doing it for you and oh btw, we spend your entire budget at 12:01 am sending you 1000 visitors a second even though its not an accelerated campaign and we doubled your budget and we told you to reach more visitors to add more to your budget. Oh, did we not tell you that we weren't running your ads until you increased your budget and now that you increased it we're going to spend 200% more?

its crazy...

It wouldn't be so bad if these giants weren't trying to kill natural search and natural engagement so fast but they realize the only way they can grow is to monetize the entire funnel and the only people that can afford to do that are the giants..

I wish i could spend more on bing but it doesn't have the traffic mostly for what appears to be obsession for google. In the USA bing is great.. i've heard it sucks elsewhere, but i wish they could compete more.

Re: The Google-Facebook Duopoly Threatens Diversity of Thought

#134
Google is the farthest thing from a monopoly.

Yahoo, Bing, Ask, AOL, duckduckgo, etc. Google has plenty of competitors. Simply being better than the competition does not make a company a monopoly.

If you're trying to claim that Google has monopolized advertising, you're even more wrong. TV, print, radio, billboards and a dozen more advertising mediums all compete with Google/Facebook.

Re: The Google-Facebook Duopoly Threatens Diversity of Thought

#135
post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nonsense. You think because WSJ is pro-business, they would "normally defend a duopoly kind of thing"? It is possible to be generally pro-business while also critizing kinda-deceptive business models with kinda-unchecked power.

If they really had any principle they would take a similar stance against the Sinclair/Tribune merger. But they won't. Because Sinclair is a conservative new outlet. It has somewhat similar opinion on politics that the WSJ has. It has said nothing and most likely favors the Sinclair merger. It opposes Facebook/Google duopoly. Why the inconsistency? Because the WSJ sees the F/G duopoly supporting political opinions it…

Well perhaps they support the propping up of old media because, on average, there is more integrity than in so-called new media, regardless of what you consider a left/right argument. Like perhaps bailing out the banks in 08 was more about stability than some evil leftist plan to quasi-socialize the core function of our economy.

Re: The Google-Facebook Duopoly Threatens Diversity of Thought

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say you want diversity of opinion because you are a "liberal" but mainstream liberalism has next to nothing to do with classical liberalism. Your average urban, coastal "liberal" adheres to their orthodoxies with about the level openness to other opinions as a stereotypical religious zealot.

Without context what you are saying is meaningless. Sure, "liberals" seem closed minded in not accepting racism, bigotry or hate speech but in accepting people for who they are, it's hard to say their opinions are stereotypical at all... I mean the democrats/liberals/progressives agree to disagree more often than not.

> racism, bigotry or hate speech

The problem is that these words have become nearly meaningless from vast overuse.

Re: The Google-Facebook Duopoly Threatens Diversity of Thought

#137
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That is very easily said but practically impossible. It's very practical to say should not be able to buy . Likewise, it is practical to say cannot favor their product in feeds, search, app stores, etc. over competitors. > Again, said very easily. Have you considered what that would mean? Sure. To the extent that open standards support types of media, it's a solved problem. Displaying tags has been a thing for deca…

To the extent that open standards support multimedia, you're absolutely right that Facebook could preview any video from any place on the internet. There might be some potential for minor security concerns around loading and serving big blobs of external data, but those are controllable. What might be of larger concern is the IP licensing aspect. Users uploading video and indemnifying Facebook against their dubious c…

> What might be of larger concern is the IP licensing aspect.

If that's the larger concern, then why isn't it a concern for text or images?

Lots of photographers would love Facebook-enforced DRM for the wedding photos they haven't licensed.

No, it makes more sense to assume the concern is pursuing consumer and creator lock-in through vertical integration.

Re: The Google-Facebook Duopoly Threatens Diversity of Thought

#138
post #123

This is the first I heard of the Prager U parental filtering and demonetization. The videos are certainly conservative, both culturally and economically, but the ones I've seen aren't objectionable in any way. In many ways, they are less objectionable than a lot that goes out over the AM radio bands in the U.S. Ars Technica on the story: https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/10/prageru-sues-you... Best I can find…

Some of the PragerU videos are rather disturbing but I'd rather have them public because picking them apart with friends is quite an interesting activity. They are an amazing conversation starter on a variety of topics. I'd hate it if Google started removing them completely, despite me not even closely aligning to their ideology.

Which ones are worth even a PG-13 rating?

Keep in mind that this content is (in my estimation) fine for terrestrial radio broadcast, which are supposed to be family friendly, hence the speech codes enforced by the FCC.

Re: The Google-Facebook Duopoly Threatens Diversity of Thought

#139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure you can "nationalize" facebook or the world wide web (by like the UN or something?? these are international Earth-scale entities) But there are a lot of tradeoffs there too and some really chilling consequences.

Those tradeoffs are as chilling as a nationalized postal service. The "chilling consequences" that you are imagining are as speculative as any other work of science-fiction that you've read online. Ask yourself: where did you get the idea that creating new public institutions would have "chilling consequences"? Did you personally experience this in reality or did you read about it somewhere? What are the chilling exp…

"when the State becomes a computer"

I think reading that sentence is enough to be bone-chillingly horrified, and nationalizing the necessary data is the first step towards making it inevitable

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