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What Needs to Happen Before Electric Cars Take Over the World

nytimes.com

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Re: What Needs to Happen Before Electric Cars Take Over the World

#231

Post by fjsolwmv »

Retric wrote: post #200
sandworm101 wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every EV owner in my area seems to also own a gas car too. My landlord commutes in an EV but his wife has a normal suv for all the kid stuff. (Im in BC where long higheay trips are very much the norm.) EVs are fine if you can afford to keep a second vehicle to cover all the things they cannot do.

Over the last 20 years a 250+ mile range electric would have worked fine for every trip I have actually taken. (Assuming the current charging infrastructure.) Now, with slightly different habits renting an SUV 0-4 times a year is minimal effort and cost. So, yea if you do 1000+ mile trips monthly without flying then electric is not going to work, but that's unusual.

120miles is the capacity of affordable EV today. We hope it gets better.

Re: What Needs to Happen Before Electric Cars Take Over the World

#232

Post by opportune »

fjsolwmv wrote: post #230
opportune wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is probably a reflection more of the demographic that can own EV's: wealthy people, likely older with children. Personally if there were a good EV in my price range (perhaps the model 3) I would have no need for a gas-powered car. I don't regularly need a large range and on the once-very-few-months occasion where I do need more range, I can just rent a car

Suv/minivan/wagon aren't wealthy cars, they are suburban/rural family cars.

I guess I don't understand the original post then. Of course if you live in a rural area you'll need a car with longer range than an EV. Most people don't live in rural areas, so most people won't need to own a gas powered car to go alongside their electric car.

It just seems like an unfair complaint about electric vehicles - the problem isn't the EV's, but people buying them without having a good use for them. I don't buy a jackhammer and then complain that I have no use for it

Re: What Needs to Happen Before Electric Cars Take Over the World

#233

Post by flexie »

walshemj wrote: post #167
flexie wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First world city streets already have electricity supply (for the street light and for the buildings). Setting up charging ports is already rather cheap and once cities realize that they can - drastically reduce air pollution - make more money selling electricity than just charging for parking they will quickly start installing plugs everywhere. Battery range is already at around 500 km for Tesla model S and X and th…

Id speak to an electrical engineer before you make such wild assertions - upgrading supplies like this will be massively expensive. Also battery tech doesn't follow mores law so we aint going to get an order of magnitude change in battery tech ever

We don't need improvements at a rate that is anywhere near Moore's law. Moore's law is about doubling transistor density every two years. But for EVs to reach that kind of ranges (7-800 km for mid range price) we just need to add 50-60 percent or so one time, and I'm talking about that happening in 4-5 years. For the cheap EVs that currently have a range of around 3-400 km we need to double one time. I suggest we will get there in less than 10 years and that is not even taking into consideration the fact that prices on batteries keep dropping.

A "modest" 5-10 percent improvement like we've seen historically, for another 7-10 years, and we have more or less doubled the energy density of batteries. Plenty for EVs to beat combustion engine cars.

https://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2017/08/daily-...

https://www.quora.com/Is-it-true-that-battery-energy-density...

Re: What Needs to Happen Before Electric Cars Take Over the World

#234

Post by mschuster91 »

davidgh wrote: post #229
mschuster91 wrote: post #213

Biggest problem I guess will be expanding the charger network, simply due to physics. On the country side, laying cables for 1MW peak load (4 superchargers @ 250 kW) will be expensive - the grid in rural areas is enough for some farms and small villages, that's it. In cities, electric-car chargers will have to deal with political obstacles (no one wants to sacrifice free-for-all parking spots!), in addition to the el…

In terms of rural areas, this will be an interesting challenge. When you drive cross country in the USA, you can expect to find gasoline reasonably close to even the most remote areas. The distance to the next gas station from anywhere in the USA is well below the range of the typical car. However, in regards to cities, you are presenting a situation where the charging station comes to the parked car, rather than the…

> if the charging times are rapidly decreased

Charging times have an upper bound: physics. 250 kW is an insane amount of power and still you'd need around half an hour to fill a 100 kWh battery, to get even close to the 5-10 minutes of charging like at a gas station you'd need megawatts of peak power... and as there are two steps of conversions involved (grid => HVDC => battery voltage), even with 99% efficiency you have 1% (or 10 kW) of heat loss alone. That heat in the small space of a battery pack is a challenge.

Re: What Needs to Happen Before Electric Cars Take Over the World

#235

Post by deevolution »

I can't wait for the day where public transportation is replaced by more efficient, cheaper and more personalized ride sharing services. Public transit is horribly broken, at least in NYC... personaly I dont see my self ever sinking 35k into a new car unless it would be making me money.

Re: What Needs to Happen Before Electric Cars Take Over the World

#236

Post by ghaff »

mschuster91 wrote: post #224
fjsolwmv wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The USA installed Cable TV, why would charging cables be harder? The USA spends $500Billion on cars and $400 Billion on gasoline every year. A onetime $trillon upgrade isn't an outsize amount.

> The USA installed Cable TV, why would charging cables be harder? Because a TV coax cable is 1cm slim and can be installed very easily. Run it over the air on poles, dig it into a small trench, run it via the sewers. Whatever fits best. A 10 kV or, worse, a 1 kA-capable 3x230V line, not so much. The 10kV (or more) line has special requirements in terms of distance to other cables, a 3x230V line at that capability is…

And it took many years and is still not universally available. (About 70% broadband penetration seems to be the current number although it may be available to some of the other 30% but just not bought.)

Re: What Needs to Happen Before Electric Cars Take Over the World

#237

Post by Cthulhu_ »

wojt_eu wrote: post #45
_greim_ wrote: post #15

> Drivers will have to shed their attachment to the sound, smell and feel of gas-powered engines. I for one will not feel the least bit sad when continuous, smooth acceleration becomes the norm, and lurchy, awkward automatic transmissions fade into distant memory. I'll probably feel slightly nostalgic about the sound and smell of fuel-burning cars someday, but it won't inform my buying choices in the slightest.

I already feel nostalgic about gas-powered cars, their place is alongside steam locomotives as movie props and tourist attractions. Imagine people doing gas-punk cosplay in a couple of decades.

> Imagine people doing gas-punk cosplay in a couple of decades.

The Mad Max look is already a thing. See also: Mad Max.

Re: What Needs to Happen Before Electric Cars Take Over the World

#238

Post by mattmaroon »

mschuster91 wrote: post #224
fjsolwmv wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The USA installed Cable TV, why would charging cables be harder? The USA spends $500Billion on cars and $400 Billion on gasoline every year. A onetime $trillon upgrade isn't an outsize amount.

> The USA installed Cable TV, why would charging cables be harder? Because a TV coax cable is 1cm slim and can be installed very easily. Run it over the air on poles, dig it into a small trench, run it via the sewers. Whatever fits best. A 10 kV or, worse, a 1 kA-capable 3x230V line, not so much. The 10kV (or more) line has special requirements in terms of distance to other cables, a 3x230V line at that capability is…

*won't. It can get enough, it doesn't for political reasons.

Re: What Needs to Happen Before Electric Cars Take Over the World

#239

Post by ghaff »

tomxor wrote: post #151

Price? (for normal people) Yes there are EVs cheaper than teslas at a comparable price to ICE cars, but they don't seem to have comparable performance and utility. I can't make an economically minded decision to buy an EV today unless i'm an EV enthusiast or I have lots of money to spend on luxury. (That was Elon Musks whole point of Tesla in the first place, but the market doesn't seem to have substantially shifted…

Product life and price for batteries will be a big consideration. A lot of young and poorer people buy pretty cheap "beater" cars that they keep running as best they can.

Re: What Needs to Happen Before Electric Cars Take Over the World

#240

Post by sandworm101 »

opportune wrote: post #232
fjsolwmv wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Suv/minivan/wagon aren't wealthy cars, they are suburban/rural family cars.

I guess I don't understand the original post then. Of course if you live in a rural area you'll need a car with longer range than an EV. Most people don't live in rural areas, so most people won't need to own a gas powered car to go alongside their electric car. It just seems like an unfair complaint about electric vehicles - the problem isn't the EV's, but people buying them without having a good use for them. I don…

The classic mom-with-kids is on the road all day. EVs dont have the range/endurance to do the school runs, shopping, then haul the kids to sports. Ive also never seen one even attempt to haul the boat to the lake for a weekend, a very middle class thing in my area. (Rich people dont store thier boats at home.)
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