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China Blocks Foreign Companies from Mapping Its Roads for Self-Driving Cars

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Re: China Blocks Foreign Companies from Mapping Its Roads for Self-Driving Cars

#71

Post by taobility »

dsl wrote: post #67
ChuckMcM wrote: post #44

They are not wrong, in that detailed maps of streets can reveal more than simply how to drive around. The combination of both detailed maps and vehicle flow is even more telling in terms of economics and other activities. It will be interesting to watch the ramifications of this sort of policy. As China moves to become a leading economy with a high level of technology distributed throughout the country, it will becom…

The first film based government satellite imagery was 0.3 m/pixel, in the 1960s. It has only gotten better since then. (For comparison you can buy GeoEye 1 data today commercially at 0.41 m/pixel) We also regularly fly stealth collection aircraft over Chinese airspace. At this point all the strategic things an invading army worries about (bridge heights, strength of roads, width between buildings for turning tanks, e…

I believe you are live in Silicon Valley. You remind me a story from Billions that how local people fool the Wall Street traders or Hedge funds you described to estimate the factory's outcome by just those Satellite photos. If you believe Satellite photos are enough, why the article still complain Chinese government's behavior.

Re: China Blocks Foreign Companies from Mapping Its Roads for Self-Driving Cars

#72

Post by newfoundglory »

hourislate wrote: post #31
foodislove wrote: post #28

Protectionism with Chinese Characteristics It's a pretty common tactic. Cite "national security" or any other vaguely plausible reason to deny access to non-favored firms (foreign companies, and local companies who don't have the "connections"). If anyone complains, government spokesperson and 50 cent mafia generate lots of angry nationalistic crying. If another country retaliates, same spokesperson and 50 cent mafia…

China is responsible for the largest theft and transfer of wealth in the history of the world. They have stolen trade secrets, ignored IP and copied everything they possibly could and can all at the expense of Western Tax Payers who funded a century of research and development. All Western companies with offices and factories in China have been compromised. From their financial records to trade secrets, all have been…

I think you're underestimating the transfer of wealth caused by colonialism.

Re: China Blocks Foreign Companies from Mapping Its Roads for Self-Driving Cars

#73

Post by newfoundglory »

dublinben wrote: post #65
nemesisj wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This type of negative opinion on China is shared all too often on HN, and it's really irritating. It's also untrue. For example, lets go to the WTO itself and see the list of current disputes, which is helpfully grouped by country: https://www.wto.org/english/tratop_e/dispu_e/dispu_by_countr... - China is currently responding to 39 complaints. - The USA is responding to 132. Which is more than the entire EU (84) and…

This is textbook "whataboutism" which has been used to deflect criticism since Soviet times. It is wrong when China does it, and it is also wrong when the US does it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

No it isn't. It's responding to the claim that China is a terrible protectionist place and the US has to make them stop, which implies that the US has the moral high ground here.

Re: China Blocks Foreign Companies from Mapping Its Roads for Self-Driving Cars

#74

Post by ChuckMcM »

dsl wrote: post #67
ChuckMcM wrote: post #44

They are not wrong, in that detailed maps of streets can reveal more than simply how to drive around. The combination of both detailed maps and vehicle flow is even more telling in terms of economics and other activities. It will be interesting to watch the ramifications of this sort of policy. As China moves to become a leading economy with a high level of technology distributed throughout the country, it will becom…

The first film based government satellite imagery was 0.3 m/pixel, in the 1960s. It has only gotten better since then. (For comparison you can buy GeoEye 1 data today commercially at 0.41 m/pixel) We also regularly fly stealth collection aircraft over Chinese airspace. At this point all the strategic things an invading army worries about (bridge heights, strength of roads, width between buildings for turning tanks, e…

I think you might be mis-remembering the history of satellite surveillance. In the 60's you would be lucky if you got 3 meters per pixel (see https://lta.cr.usgs.gov/declass_1 for additional details) That said, there have been claims of 0.1 m GSD satellites[1]. That said, satellites cannot read street signs or business names or capture WiFi hotspots or measure mean traffic density. Things that 'streetview' cars do all the time in order to create a better navigation experience.

That information may or may not be interesting to the military but I can imagine ways that it would be interesting to business and finance and enforcement folks. It is perhaps opportunities for that sort of scrutiny that is unwelcome?

[1] http://www.businessinsider.com/satellite-image-resolution-ke...

Re: China Blocks Foreign Companies from Mapping Its Roads for Self-Driving Cars

#75

Post by xster »

cohnnton wrote: post #22

This is a typical China behavior: lie to WTO about how open its economy is, then openly disregard the repriprocity with other countries and block foreign companies from competing. Thank goodness other countries are waking up: "The United States, European Union and Japan vowed on Tuesday to work together to fight market-distorting trade practices and policies that have fueled excess production capacity, naming several…

I agree with your general sentiment and how China's gaming the system. I'd also be very cautious about assuming the 'system' (WTO) even pretending to be fair or democratic or not conducting economic wars of aggression against poorer members on a daily basis such as the wiping out of agricultural markets in Central America via US farming subsidies etc.

Re: China Blocks Foreign Companies from Mapping Its Roads for Self-Driving Cars

#76

Post by logfromblammo »

SamReidHughes wrote: post #55
logfromblammo wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Common sense, perhaps? Large militaries will create their own up-to-date maps for every region of the world where they could possibly expect to be operating. They will, of course, keep strategic details in such maps secret, but with a bit of marginal effort, the maps deemed to have low military relevance can also be sold to civilians for their business purposes. In order to keep a location secret now, it can't be vis…

It eats up foreign military budgets.

Those militaries can't trust your civil maps anyway, no matter how accurate they may be in the parts where people actually use them. It's not like you're going to have that featureless black square labeled as "ICBM silo" instead of "dairy barn".

Re: China Blocks Foreign Companies from Mapping Its Roads for Self-Driving Cars

#77

Post by it_learnses »

newfoundglory wrote: post #72
hourislate wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China is responsible for the largest theft and transfer of wealth in the history of the world. They have stolen trade secrets, ignored IP and copied everything they possibly could and can all at the expense of Western Tax Payers who funded a century of research and development. All Western companies with offices and factories in China have been compromised. From their financial records to trade secrets, all have been…

I think you're underestimating the transfer of wealth caused by colonialism.

Typical. Let's just deflect to "colonialism" to shift the focus away from Chinese dictatorship's wrongdoing.

Re: China Blocks Foreign Companies from Mapping Its Roads for Self-Driving Cars

#78

Post by it_learnses »

Retric wrote: post #10
SteveGregory wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What kind of response would you like to see from the West?

Tit for tat tends to work really well. The west is in a vastly better position to exploit a trade war with China than China is. Thus, China is more likely to back down when pushed. Remember, a little give and take keeps players honest. Without that their is not reason for China not to try and bend the rules as much as possible.

Yep. We just need to unite major players such as USA, Canada, Japan, India, Australia who are being threatened by Chinese practices and declare a trade war. Sanction the hell out of them to make them realize that their govt can't bully the rest of the world population.

Re: China Blocks Foreign Companies from Mapping Its Roads for Self-Driving Cars

#79

Post by SamReidHughes »

logfromblammo wrote: post #76
SamReidHughes wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It eats up foreign military budgets.

Those militaries can't trust your civil maps anyway, no matter how accurate they may be in the parts where people actually use them. It's not like you're going to have that featureless black square labeled as "ICBM silo" instead of "dairy barn".

You can fairly efficiently check that a city's street layout is accurate by random sampling. That's much less human labor.

China might also be concerned about internal security.

Re: China Blocks Foreign Companies from Mapping Its Roads for Self-Driving Cars

#80

Post by dvdhnt »

gaius wrote: post #32
dvdhnt wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably because it’s none of our business? Literally and figuratively.

none of our business? Literally No, it literally is business. China sells products in the West the value of which derives from there being good mapping data of the West. Banning this same data being collected there is an unfair distortion of the market.

Last time I checked, we don't live there. There's no natural right to do business anywhere, well, at least if you are not a citizen of that state - however, even that's not true here thanks to a combination of licenses, regulations, taxes, etc.

Like, so many people on HN worship "the market" like it matters beyond our tiny, irrelevant life spans, it's horrific.

If I lease my apartment to another person on Airbnb, I am under no obligation to lease my apartment to them or at all.

The fact that we take advantage of their exports does not compel them to do the same.

So, like, don't buy Chinese products taking advantage of Western mapping data, but do so quietly since, you know, they don't have to do anything economically that they don't want to do.

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