China Blocks Foreign Companies from Mapping Its Roads for Self-Driving Cars • Hacker News Board

Re: China Blocks Foreign Companies from Mapping Its Roads for Self-Driving Cars

#61

Post by johansch » Mon, Dec 18, 2017, 6:27 PM UTC

paradite wrote: post #40

foodislove wrote: post #28

Protectionism with Chinese Characteristics It's a pretty common tactic. Cite "national security" or any other vaguely plausible reason to deny access to non-favored firms (foreign companies, and local companies who don't have the "connections"). If anyone complains, government spokesperson and 50 cent mafia generate lots of angry nationalistic crying. If another country retaliates, same spokesperson and 50 cent mafia…

US and EU have in the past blocked several Chinese companies (ZTE, Huawei, etc) for national security reasons as well. Would you classify them as protectionism? If yes, then why are you complaining? If not, then why are you applying double standards here?

Well, at least US/EU allow Chinese companies to create local companies operating internet services in their regions without insisting on a locally-owned "joint venture" with a local company owning the majority of the company.

I think the US/EU should retaliate on this particular policy for China specifically. This is way overdue.

Re: China Blocks Foreign Companies from Mapping Its Roads for Self-Driving Cars

#62

Post by gaius » Mon, Dec 18, 2017, 6:48 PM UTC

twblalock wrote: post #57

gaius wrote: post #4

Business as usual. The real question is why the West sits on its hands.

Western governments have decided that they are better off sitting on their hands than starting a trade war. I think there are good reasons to believe that is true.

better off sitting on their hands than starting a trade war

Starting? Begun, the trade war has.

Re: China Blocks Foreign Companies from Mapping Its Roads for Self-Driving Cars

#63

Post by michaelscott » Mon, Dec 18, 2017, 6:52 PM UTC

nemesisj wrote: post #58

cohnnton wrote: post #22

This is a typical China behavior: lie to WTO about how open its economy is, then openly disregard the repriprocity with other countries and block foreign companies from competing. Thank goodness other countries are waking up: "The United States, European Union and Japan vowed on Tuesday to work together to fight market-distorting trade practices and policies that have fueled excess production capacity, naming several…

This type of negative opinion on China is shared all too often on HN, and it's really irritating. It's also untrue. For example, lets go to the WTO itself and see the list of current disputes, which is helpfully grouped by country: https://www.wto.org/english/tratop_e/dispu_e/dispu_by_countr... - China is currently responding to 39 complaints. - The USA is responding to 132. Which is more than the entire EU (84) and…

I'm not sure I understand.. are you saying that China is NOT a protectionist market? There is plenty of evidence to the contrary.

It's true that such a view doesn't disregard the often equally protectionist approaches of countries like the US, yes, but the former can't be denied just because of the latter.

Re: China Blocks Foreign Companies from Mapping Its Roads for Self-Driving Cars

#64

Post by setecgastronomy » Mon, Dec 18, 2017, 7:02 PM UTC

nemesisj wrote: post #58

cohnnton wrote: post #22

This is a typical China behavior: lie to WTO about how open its economy is, then openly disregard the repriprocity with other countries and block foreign companies from competing. Thank goodness other countries are waking up: "The United States, European Union and Japan vowed on Tuesday to work together to fight market-distorting trade practices and policies that have fueled excess production capacity, naming several…

This type of negative opinion on China is shared all too often on HN, and it's really irritating. It's also untrue. For example, lets go to the WTO itself and see the list of current disputes, which is helpfully grouped by country: https://www.wto.org/english/tratop_e/dispu_e/dispu_by_countr... - China is currently responding to 39 complaints. - The USA is responding to 132. Which is more than the entire EU (84) and…

Yep. You can expect the same type anti-chinese comments in every china related thread. It's become comical at this point.

Re: China Blocks Foreign Companies from Mapping Its Roads for Self-Driving Cars

#65

Post by dublinben » Mon, Dec 18, 2017, 7:05 PM UTC

nemesisj wrote: post #58

cohnnton wrote: post #22

This is a typical China behavior: lie to WTO about how open its economy is, then openly disregard the repriprocity with other countries and block foreign companies from competing. Thank goodness other countries are waking up: "The United States, European Union and Japan vowed on Tuesday to work together to fight market-distorting trade practices and policies that have fueled excess production capacity, naming several…

This type of negative opinion on China is shared all too often on HN, and it's really irritating. It's also untrue. For example, lets go to the WTO itself and see the list of current disputes, which is helpfully grouped by country: https://www.wto.org/english/tratop_e/dispu_e/dispu_by_countr... - China is currently responding to 39 complaints. - The USA is responding to 132. Which is more than the entire EU (84) and…

This is textbook "whataboutism" which has been used to deflect criticism since Soviet times. It is wrong when China does it, and it is also wrong when the US does it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

Re: China Blocks Foreign Companies from Mapping Its Roads for Self-Driving Cars

#66

Post by jxramos » Mon, Dec 18, 2017, 7:08 PM UTC

For some reason this makes me think about that time I read that Russia installed wider train tracks to prevent trains from other countries from slipping in and entering the country.

Re: China Blocks Foreign Companies from Mapping Its Roads for Self-Driving Cars

#67

Post by dsl » Mon, Dec 18, 2017, 7:12 PM UTC

ChuckMcM wrote: post #44

They are not wrong, in that detailed maps of streets can reveal more than simply how to drive around. The combination of both detailed maps and vehicle flow is even more telling in terms of economics and other activities. It will be interesting to watch the ramifications of this sort of policy. As China moves to become a leading economy with a high level of technology distributed throughout the country, it will becom…

The first film based government satellite imagery was 0.3 m/pixel, in the 1960s. It has only gotten better since then. (For comparison you can buy GeoEye 1 data today commercially at 0.41 m/pixel) We also regularly fly stealth collection aircraft over Chinese airspace.

At this point all the strategic things an invading army worries about (bridge heights, strength of roads, width between buildings for turning tanks, etc) can be obtained easily from overhead reconnaissance.

Hedge funds have been flying satellites to collect economic indicators (traffic flow in retail spaces, fill levels in oil storage tanks, number of ships in port, etc) since the '90s.

Re: China Blocks Foreign Companies from Mapping Its Roads for Self-Driving Cars

#68

Post by taobility » Mon, Dec 18, 2017, 7:15 PM UTC

gscott wrote: post #59

petre wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Block Chinese companies from doing certain things, require licenses etc.

Block China from accessing US websites similar to how China does.

Shouldn't block Chinese websites from US?

Re: China Blocks Foreign Companies from Mapping Its Roads for Self-Driving Cars

#69

Post by bsder » Mon, Dec 18, 2017, 7:21 PM UTC

paradite wrote: post #40

foodislove wrote: post #28

Protectionism with Chinese Characteristics It's a pretty common tactic. Cite "national security" or any other vaguely plausible reason to deny access to non-favored firms (foreign companies, and local companies who don't have the "connections"). If anyone complains, government spokesperson and 50 cent mafia generate lots of angry nationalistic crying. If another country retaliates, same spokesperson and 50 cent mafia…

US and EU have in the past blocked several Chinese companies (ZTE, Huawei, etc) for national security reasons as well. Would you classify them as protectionism? If yes, then why are you complaining? If not, then why are you applying double standards here?

You probably shouldn't cite Huawei, who was found guilty of outright theft of Cisco technology and software (literally copied it down to the bugs--it's how Cisco proved their case) when you are trying to cite examples of "victims" of protectionism.

Huawei are the poster child case you cite in favor of protecting your domestic companies.

Re: China Blocks Foreign Companies from Mapping Its Roads for Self-Driving Cars

#70

Post by twblalock » Mon, Dec 18, 2017, 7:23 PM UTC

gaius wrote: post #62

twblalock wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Western governments have decided that they are better off sitting on their hands than starting a trade war. I think there are good reasons to believe that is true.

better off sitting on their hands than starting a trade war Starting? Begun, the trade war has.

This is not a trade war. This is an example of a country pursuing a protectionist policy program. A trade war would result if the west retaliated by creating new tariffs or bans on Chinese products as a response. That would be worse for the west than simply ignoring the protectionism, and that's why the west hasn't done it. If western countries could become better off by screwing China they would certainly do it right away.

Frankly the world has never had free trade; it's just had freer trade in recent years than in the past. There are constant disputes in the WTO about tariffs, subsidies, and other protectionist measures implemented by western countries as well as China. Free-trade deals reduce barriers to trade in some areas and increase them in others. This mapping situation is just another routine trade dispute.