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China Blocks Foreign Companies from Mapping Its Roads for Self-Driving Cars

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Re: China Blocks Foreign Companies from Mapping Its Roads for Self-Driving Cars

#51

Post by prewett »

greggman wrote: post #5
bkor wrote: post #2

The title implies a bit more than what the article says. Basically China doesn't like their country to be mapped. As a result supposedly it's pretty difficult to use most navigation software (e.g. Google Maps) within China. China is NOT blocking it because it is self-driving (which is what you might assume). China blocks pretty much any mapping. I haven't been to China btw; I'm curious if OpenStreetMap would work.

I don't think its that simple and I'm curious what's really up. I was just in Shanghai, Nanjing, Hangzhou for a week. I purchased a Hong Kong sim for my phone. Google and Facebook were not blocked when using tbat sim but they were blocked on hotel WiFi. So then trying Google Maps the location was always wrong. So wrong as to be unusable. But, trying Apple Maps it was always correct. It seems like that could only happ…

In the past, ditu.google.cn (only accessible within mainland China, I believe) un-offset the data. I don't know if that is still available.

Re: China Blocks Foreign Companies from Mapping Its Roads for Self-Driving Cars

#52

Post by majormajor »

saosebastiao wrote: post #36

This is the sore spot economists often have with anti-trade politics. Recap: people tend to only think of the benefits of trade in the money they make from trade, and not the products or ideas that they get when other countries make money from us. There are benefits to both buying from and selling to other countries, and by only considering one side, we make decisions that make us poorer. China doesn't want foreign c…

Economists often understate the value (especially to government and powerful connected folks) of stability and control while focusing on things like "massive number of people with objectively worse maps."

The potential-foreign-influenced-insurrection-to-better-maps exhange rate is tough to pin down. ;)

Re: China Blocks Foreign Companies from Mapping Its Roads for Self-Driving Cars

#53

Post by justicezyx »

pas wrote: post #48
paradite wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US and EU have in the past blocked several Chinese companies (ZTE, Huawei, etc) for national security reasons as well. Would you classify them as protectionism? If yes, then why are you complaining? If not, then why are you applying double standards here?

Why not judge the concerns on their own merit? Blocking a chip or other technology that's hard to vet is one thing. Blocking mapping when the same is already accessible from space via spy and public satellites? Does not really makes sense. Now, of course these cases can and should be compared, but so far it seems that citing national security issues in one case seems to be pretty baseless excuse, whereas in the other…

> Blocking mapping when the same is already accessible from space via spy and public satellites? Does not really makes sense.

Then no one needs to map the road anyway, why bother?

Re: China Blocks Foreign Companies from Mapping Its Roads for Self-Driving Cars

#54

Post by tw04 »

paradite wrote: post #40
foodislove wrote: post #28

Protectionism with Chinese Characteristics It's a pretty common tactic. Cite "national security" or any other vaguely plausible reason to deny access to non-favored firms (foreign companies, and local companies who don't have the "connections"). If anyone complains, government spokesperson and 50 cent mafia generate lots of angry nationalistic crying. If another country retaliates, same spokesperson and 50 cent mafia…

US and EU have in the past blocked several Chinese companies (ZTE, Huawei, etc) for national security reasons as well. Would you classify them as protectionism? If yes, then why are you complaining? If not, then why are you applying double standards here?

You're citing firms who have direct ties to the government. I would expect China to also block Lockheed Martin from acquiring Chengdu Aerospace - and nobody would bat an eye.

What the US government HASN'T done is say "sorry ZTE, you can't sell ANY phones in the US because national security". There's a very, very big difference.

Re: China Blocks Foreign Companies from Mapping Its Roads for Self-Driving Cars

#55

Post by SamReidHughes »

logfromblammo wrote: post #49
dis-sys wrote: post #30

Is there any international law or treaty explicitly requiring countries to allow their roads to be mapped by foreign countries/companies?

Common sense, perhaps? Large militaries will create their own up-to-date maps for every region of the world where they could possibly expect to be operating. They will, of course, keep strategic details in such maps secret, but with a bit of marginal effort, the maps deemed to have low military relevance can also be sold to civilians for their business purposes. In order to keep a location secret now, it can't be vis…

It eats up foreign military budgets.

Re: China Blocks Foreign Companies from Mapping Its Roads for Self-Driving Cars

#56

Post by i_cant_speel »

justicezyx wrote: post #53
pas wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not judge the concerns on their own merit? Blocking a chip or other technology that's hard to vet is one thing. Blocking mapping when the same is already accessible from space via spy and public satellites? Does not really makes sense. Now, of course these cases can and should be compared, but so far it seems that citing national security issues in one case seems to be pretty baseless excuse, whereas in the other…

> Blocking mapping when the same is already accessible from space via spy and public satellites? Does not really makes sense. Then no one needs to map the road anyway, why bother?

The satellites don't provide enough information for self driving cars while they do provide enough information to be what China is considering a national security concern.

Re: China Blocks Foreign Companies from Mapping Its Roads for Self-Driving Cars

#57

Post by twblalock »

gaius wrote: post #4

Business as usual. The real question is why the West sits on its hands.

Western governments have decided that they are better off sitting on their hands than starting a trade war. I think there are good reasons to believe that is true.

Re: China Blocks Foreign Companies from Mapping Its Roads for Self-Driving Cars

#58

Post by nemesisj »

cohnnton wrote: post #22

This is a typical China behavior: lie to WTO about how open its economy is, then openly disregard the repriprocity with other countries and block foreign companies from competing. Thank goodness other countries are waking up: "The United States, European Union and Japan vowed on Tuesday to work together to fight market-distorting trade practices and policies that have fueled excess production capacity, naming several…

This type of negative opinion on China is shared all too often on HN, and it's really irritating.

It's also untrue.

For example, lets go to the WTO itself and see the list of current disputes, which is helpfully grouped by country: https://www.wto.org/english/tratop_e/dispu_e/dispu_by_countr...

- China is currently responding to 39 complaints.

- The USA is responding to 132. Which is more than the entire EU (84) and more than any other country.

It's really tiring to see the "China is a protectionist market" narrative trotted out again and again, unchallenged, and is probably second only to the "China is encroaching on the South China sea" narrative in terms of how hypocritical both views are, especially when espoused by Americans.

Re: China Blocks Foreign Companies from Mapping Its Roads for Self-Driving Cars

#59

Post by gscott »

petre wrote: post #41
SteveGregory wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What kind of response would you like to see from the West?

Block Chinese companies from doing certain things, require licenses etc.

Block China from accessing US websites similar to how China does.

Re: China Blocks Foreign Companies from Mapping Its Roads for Self-Driving Cars

#60

Post by Chaebixi »

Eridrus wrote: post #20
gaius wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No mapping, no access to our markets for anything mapping related. Fair's fair!

Are there enough Chinese companies doing mapping related things for this to be relevant? There are legitimate security reasons to restrict maps, so this seems unlikely to be something easy to mobilise a larger trade war over.

> Are there enough Chinese companies doing mapping related things for this to be relevant?

The sanctions wouldn't have need to be in the exact same area, just ones that would cause equivalent pain.

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