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Casualties of the Cashless Society: Those Who Get Seasonal Tips

nytimes.com

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Re: Casualties of the Cashless Society: Those Who Get Seasonal Tips

#61

Post by dragonwriter »

c0wb0yc0d3r wrote: post #52
mjevans wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with most of your points. However, I'd like to start with two labor patches (in the same set). 1) Pro-rate all benefits (with 3/4ths of median 'full time' work hours as full time). 2) Eliminate that tip as part of wage 'loophole'. Tips should still be allowed, but they should be for truly exceptional things, and not a hidden cost of buying something.

2) Eliminate that tip as part of wage 'loophole'. That is interesting. As I understand it now, the way tips are factored into wages, it benefits the employee more so than the employer. Society loses because the employee is supposed to report tips so they are taxed, the employer loses because they still have to pay minimum wage, and the employee wins because they are paid minimum wage and get their tips tax free. Mayb…

> As I understand it now, the way tips are factored into wages, it benefits the employee more so than the employer. Society loses because the employee is supposed to report tips so they are taxed, the employer loses because they still have to pay minimum wage, and the employee wins because they are paid minimum wage and get their tips tax free.

Employers of workers in customarily tipped jobs can and do use tips as a performance metric, so if the employer has to top up your tips to minimum wage, it probably also means you are also losing your job. This also motivates overreporting tips.

Re: Casualties of the Cashless Society: Those Who Get Seasonal Tips

#62

Post by betterunix2 »

btilly wrote: post #57
betterunix2 wrote: post #2

Maybe we should not have tips? There is no actual need or advantage to giving people tips, and there are plenty of countries where tipping is not common (including some where cash is still favored over electronic payments). Why not just pay people a fair wage that they can live on?

My ability to choose whether to tip less for bad service is a way to encourage servers to give good service. My experience traveling is that places like France with legally mandated tip amounts have very inconsistent service quality. It can be good, but it can also be very bad. And when a server decides to make your service bad, there is nothing that you can really do about it and nobody will care.

My experience in Japan was that the service quality was even better than in America, and if I left a tip they assumed I did not know how to do arithmetic or that I forgot my change. Culture is probably the more important factor in the quality of service, not the ability of customers to leave or refuse a tip.

Re: Casualties of the Cashless Society: Those Who Get Seasonal Tips

#63

Post by dragonwriter »

taoistextremist wrote: post #14
jedberg wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ostensible purpose of the doorman is to add a layer of security. Someone who is always there watching, looking for people who don't belong, receiving packages and securing them, etc. They are basically a crime deterrent. So is the elevator operator to an extent (although that one is really more just for impression of being fancy).

>Someone who is always there watching, looking for people who don't belong, receiving packages and securing them, etc. Isn't that the job of a receptionist? They should definitely be getting paid more if these are all their responsibility.

> Isn't that the job of a receptionist?

Not typically, though a receptionist in a place without a doorman or might do some or all of them.

Re: Casualties of the Cashless Society: Those Who Get Seasonal Tips

#64

Post by wfo »

c0wb0yc0d3r wrote: post #33
Sangermaine wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because that would cost the companies more and they're happy to get away with paying less. It's really not a mystery.

In the US, employees must still be paid minimum wage. Depending on the state, an employer may count tips toward this amount. If an employee reports $0 in tips, the employer must pay them $7.25/hr. While I would like to believe that what you say is true, I find it hard to be true. I think the bigger issues are at play whether it's is the fact that minimum wages need to be adjusted, a more modern solution is needed to…

>In the US, employees must still be paid minimum wage. Depending on the state, an employer may count tips toward this amount. If an employee reports $0 in tips, the employer must pay them $7.25/hr. While I would like to believe that what you say is true, I find it hard to be true.

Sure this is technically correct according to the way the law is written but it ignores the reality which is that a large group of criminals ignore the law on a daily basis and face no consequences. Wage theft is MASSIVE and widespread across America especially for low wage workers, who often rely on tips (but it even effects high wage workers too!). More money is stolen in the US through wage theft than all other methods combined. Business owners (especially small business owners) steal from their employees by not paying them when they quit (oh I guess we just lost your last paycheck, sorry, we'll get it to you soon I promise), stealing tips, intimidating employees into not reporting wages under the minimum, refusing to pay legally mandated overtime or refusing to allow legally required breaks or a variety of other ways owners can use their power to illegally extract unpaid labor from their employees.

The solution is to abolish tips and require business owners pay their workers fair wages, or help the workers bargain collectively to ensure this themselves.

Re: Casualties of the Cashless Society: Those Who Get Seasonal Tips

#65

Post by untog »

betterunix2 wrote: post #58
untog wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am sure that all the doormen, bartenders and the like out there will be very reassured to hear that them earning less money is a non-issue you are more than happy to dismiss. > changing from a tip-based system to just having a higher base salary does not sound so terrible Of course it doesn't. But that isn't what's happening. Instead, they get paid the same base salary and don't get tips. And the profound disintere…

It is not a tech problem and blaming the tech industry will not solve it. Employers should not be allowed to underpay their employees, regardless of what form of payment is commonly used. Blame lawmakers who refuse to raise the minimum wage and who continue allowing restaurants to pay below minimum wage because their waiters receive tips. Why do people expect tech companies to fix this problem? Tech companies did not…

I'm not suggesting that tech has to fix the problem, but that it should at the very least be interested in helping others solve the problem. Blame lawmakers? Absolutely. Why not actively lobby lawmakers, and work with them to change the law?

> tech companies did not invent tipping and tech companies did not create a system where certain professions rely on tips.

No, but they did break the existing model whereby workers received tips, without thought how for what an alternative looks like. And it happens time and time again, like enabling the gig economy without considering what happens to the benefits and job security of those forced into it. And each time the industry as a whole throws up its hands and says "society needs to fix it" rather than engaging proactively.

Like I said, people resent Silicon Valley. Maybe not the majority yet, but it's on the rise. Before long Silicon Valley will replace Wall Street in many people's perception, as it helps to concentrate wealth to the haves and away from the have-nots. Those of us working in the industry ought to be concerned about that.

Re: Casualties of the Cashless Society: Those Who Get Seasonal Tips

#66

Post by Yetanfou »

The 'cashless society' is starting to show another dark side here in Sweden in that several banks have started to close accounts for organisations [1] which don't "agree to the bank's ethical foundation" (the Swedish word is "Värdegrund" [2]). While there still are banks willing to take these organisations as customers this is a development in the wrong direction. It does not matter whether you agree with the "ethical foundation" these "banned" organisations have, the important fact is that they operate within the bounds of the law of the land. This used to be the deciding factor to separate 'good' from 'bad', legal from illegal, allowed from disallowed. Cash does not care about politics, it is - by law - as valid for a communist as it is for a priest or a libertarian. This currently does not go for the services provided by banks to enable transactions in a cashless society as can be seen by the Swedish example; there is no compulsion for those banks to take up anyone or any organisation as a customer. In a polarised society like Sweden where the pressure to abide by the "ethical foundation" is very strong this leads to extra-judicial sentences on those who do not abide by or agree to those ethical foundations.

Had those organisations been shunned because of their stance on, say, religion, those banks would be accused of discrimination. Discrimination based on political orientation however is currently not protected by law. If the "cashless society" is to succeed this probably will have to change, doing anything else will only lead to even more segregation where "left-wing" financial institutions refuse to do business with "right-wing" customers.

In short, in a land ruled by law it is the law which should be the boundary between what is allowed and disallowed. As long as an individual or an organisations abides by the law their ideological standpoint should be irrelevant to financial service companies.

[1] http://www.friatider.se/nordea-st-nger-ner-nationalisters-ko...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%A4rdegrund

Re: Casualties of the Cashless Society: Those Who Get Seasonal Tips

#67

Post by lazerpants »

Simon_says wrote: post #43
Glyptodon wrote: post #18

I'm reminded of a family friend telling me a story about how last year they were on day trip somewhere and a power outage happened to occur in whatever one-shop town out in the boondocks they were visiting and only one old Grandma had cash to pay for a drink or snack while the power was out, everyone else basically had to starve through lunch waiting for the power to come back on.

That's on the business. I used to be a cashier, and during power outages, we had an old carbon copier that we could use to copy credit cards and note the amount, and then enter it in manually later. You lose the instant approve/deny, but we'd also copy ids.

How did you copy licenses if the power was out?

Re: Casualties of the Cashless Society: Those Who Get Seasonal Tips

#68

Post by libertyEQ »

45h34jh53k4j wrote: post #42
Simon_says wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tipping is part of Uber now? That was what I liked about it! Did they at least lower the base rate to compensate?

its more expensive than ever. i refuse to tip via uber (of course I get downvoted by the driver due to tip extortion). Screw uber!

We honestly need less comments on HN that end with, "Screw X!"

Re: Casualties of the Cashless Society: Those Who Get Seasonal Tips

#69

Post by lazerpants »

millzlane wrote: post #22

There is no way we will rid this society of tips. People will need to be paid more to compensate. And not many capitalist want to to give more and earn less. I was just in New York yesterday. Upon seeing the doormen dressed like the guy in Home Alone, I realized that there are people who still want you dressed in a monkey suit for no logical reason. I doubt they're willing to pay them more. I'm certain someone can ma…

>On a side note do we even need door men?

At my buddy's old place in Brooklyn the security door for the building broke. It had been broken for about 24 hours before my friend discovered a prostitute giving a john a BJ in the stairwell.

Doormen keep prostitutes from giving BJs in your stairwell, among other things.

Re: Casualties of the Cashless Society: Those Who Get Seasonal Tips

#70

Post by astura »

btilly wrote: post #57
betterunix2 wrote: post #2

Maybe we should not have tips? There is no actual need or advantage to giving people tips, and there are plenty of countries where tipping is not common (including some where cash is still favored over electronic payments). Why not just pay people a fair wage that they can live on?

My ability to choose whether to tip less for bad service is a way to encourage servers to give good service. My experience traveling is that places like France with legally mandated tip amounts have very inconsistent service quality. It can be good, but it can also be very bad. And when a server decides to make your service bad, there is nothing that you can really do about it and nobody will care.

That's not the reality.

People tip based on the following:

The amount of the bill (everyone knows that a server who carries filet mignon works three times as hard as a server who carries an omelette and a cocktail is five times harder to pick up from the service bar than a soda - facts of life)

Guilt.

Their upbringing.

The server's gender and race (really)

How attractive the server is.

Their mood.

The weather.

The noise level of the restaurant.

If the they were touched by the server.

In practice, once you actually study this stuff, tips have very, very little to do with the quality of service received. Specifically, its around 2% of the tip amount.

https://www.vox.com/2014/7/17/5888347/one-more-case-against-...

Service can be really inconsistent and also bad in the US too.

Above all restaurant service is a team effort and the service you receive is merely a function of the quality of management. Its insanely unemphatic to believe your server deserves a dock in pay for things out of their control.

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