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Casualties of the Cashless Society: Those Who Get Seasonal Tips

nytimes.com

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Re: Casualties of the Cashless Society: Those Who Get Seasonal Tips

#51

Post by untog »

betterunix2 wrote: post #49
untog wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, sure. But that feels like a bit of a dismissal of the issue. New tech has enabled our much more convenient cashless society, but it's left a gaping hole for certain members of that society. It doesn't seem unreasonable that tech might also think about ways to fix that problem too, rather than deferring the awkward stuff to someone/anyone else.

Tipping is a non-issue and I am more than happy to dismiss it; other developed nations get by without tipping, we can as well. New technology always forces some professions to change, and changing from a tip-based system to just having a higher base salary does not sound so terrible. Tips are nothing more than a way for business owners to justify paying their workers less. I agree that there are problems with a cashl…

I am sure that all the doormen, bartenders and the like out there will be very reassured to hear that them earning less money is a non-issue you are more than happy to dismiss.

> changing from a tip-based system to just having a higher base salary does not sound so terrible

Of course it doesn't. But that isn't what's happening. Instead, they get paid the same base salary and don't get tips. And the profound disinterest in problems like this is why more and more people resent Silicon Valley rather than look up to it.

Re: Casualties of the Cashless Society: Those Who Get Seasonal Tips

#52

Post by c0wb0yc0d3r »

mjevans wrote: post #46
c0wb0yc0d3r wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US, employees must still be paid minimum wage. Depending on the state, an employer may count tips toward this amount. If an employee reports $0 in tips, the employer must pay them $7.25/hr. While I would like to believe that what you say is true, I find it hard to be true. I think the bigger issues are at play whether it's is the fact that minimum wages need to be adjusted, a more modern solution is needed to…

I agree with most of your points. However, I'd like to start with two labor patches (in the same set). 1) Pro-rate all benefits (with 3/4ths of median 'full time' work hours as full time). 2) Eliminate that tip as part of wage 'loophole'. Tips should still be allowed, but they should be for truly exceptional things, and not a hidden cost of buying something.

2) Eliminate that tip as part of wage 'loophole'.

That is interesting. As I understand it now, the way tips are factored into wages, it benefits the employee more so than the employer. Society loses because the employee is supposed to report tips so they are taxed, the employer loses because they still have to pay minimum wage, and the employee wins because they are paid minimum wage and get their tips tax free.

Maybe I'm just being dense, but how would this elimination be beneficial?

Re: Casualties of the Cashless Society: Those Who Get Seasonal Tips

#53

Post by betterunix2 »

tomc1985 wrote: post #37
betterunix2 wrote: post #2

Maybe we should not have tips? There is no actual need or advantage to giving people tips, and there are plenty of countries where tipping is not common (including some where cash is still favored over electronic payments). Why not just pay people a fair wage that they can live on?

Maybe we should keep cash and stop trying to kill it? So many think there is no value to a physical, untraceable, my-transaction-is-not-necessarily-logged money, so sad :/

We can make untraceable electronic payment systems; in fact, there was a failed startup doing just that all the way back in 1989:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digicash

That said, what makes you think having a cash-oriented society guarantees tipping? There are industrialized nations that still rely on cash but where tipping is not ingrained in the culture; my experience in Japan was that if I left a tip people would assume I had made an error in my arithmetic or forgot my change.

I agree that privacy is a problem with going cashless. Let's ignore tipping and instead focus on an actual problem.

Re: Casualties of the Cashless Society: Those Who Get Seasonal Tips

#54

Post by greggarious »

Do people not carry cash?

Maybe the types who have an apartment with a doorman in Manhattan don't. But I (a "millenial") often go to bars and restaurants that are cash only.

Eventually, I found it was easier keep budget my "entertainment" in cash. Visually being able to see how much I have, how much I'm taking out helps. Being able to see that amount grow if I'm frugal one month feels good too.

I have friends who claim they get value from "points". But unless you're working towards a spending minimum for a sign up bonus, I've found the amount you make (2-5%) from using your credit card is less than the savings from thinking critically about which cash purchases to make.

Re: Casualties of the Cashless Society: Those Who Get Seasonal Tips

#55

Post by walshemj »

jedberg wrote: post #7

I've had this problem from the other side. I haven't been to the bank to withdraw cash in years. Usually I got all the cash I needed by splitting bills with friends, where I paid on the card and got cash, or Chinese New Year money. But since having kids (and the invention of Venmo and its ilk), we've stopped going out with friends and splitting checks and when we do it's all digital, and now I have to give the New Ye…

Seriously you don't keep any cash for emergencies small payments and so on?

Re: Casualties of the Cashless Society: Those Who Get Seasonal Tips

#56

Post by walshemj »

millzlane wrote: post #22

There is no way we will rid this society of tips. People will need to be paid more to compensate. And not many capitalist want to to give more and earn less. I was just in New York yesterday. Upon seeing the doormen dressed like the guy in Home Alone, I realized that there are people who still want you dressed in a monkey suit for no logical reason. I doubt they're willing to pay them more. I'm certain someone can ma…

A concierge at a 5* hotel can make bank - need a source for those Hamilton tickets for example

Re: Casualties of the Cashless Society: Those Who Get Seasonal Tips

#57

Post by btilly »

betterunix2 wrote: post #2

Maybe we should not have tips? There is no actual need or advantage to giving people tips, and there are plenty of countries where tipping is not common (including some where cash is still favored over electronic payments). Why not just pay people a fair wage that they can live on?

My ability to choose whether to tip less for bad service is a way to encourage servers to give good service.

My experience traveling is that places like France with legally mandated tip amounts have very inconsistent service quality. It can be good, but it can also be very bad. And when a server decides to make your service bad, there is nothing that you can really do about it and nobody will care.

Re: Casualties of the Cashless Society: Those Who Get Seasonal Tips

#58

Post by betterunix2 »

untog wrote: post #51
betterunix2 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tipping is a non-issue and I am more than happy to dismiss it; other developed nations get by without tipping, we can as well. New technology always forces some professions to change, and changing from a tip-based system to just having a higher base salary does not sound so terrible. Tips are nothing more than a way for business owners to justify paying their workers less. I agree that there are problems with a cashl…

I am sure that all the doormen, bartenders and the like out there will be very reassured to hear that them earning less money is a non-issue you are more than happy to dismiss. > changing from a tip-based system to just having a higher base salary does not sound so terrible Of course it doesn't. But that isn't what's happening. Instead, they get paid the same base salary and don't get tips. And the profound disintere…

It is not a tech problem and blaming the tech industry will not solve it. Employers should not be allowed to underpay their employees, regardless of what form of payment is commonly used. Blame lawmakers who refuse to raise the minimum wage and who continue allowing restaurants to pay below minimum wage because their waiters receive tips.

Why do people expect tech companies to fix this problem? Tech companies did not invent tipping and tech companies did not create a system where certain professions rely on tips.

Other industrialized countries are doing fine without tipping, and some of those countries still rely on cash. What do you think doormen and bartenders in those countries do?

Re: Casualties of the Cashless Society: Those Who Get Seasonal Tips

#59

Post by libertyEQ »

c0wb0yc0d3r wrote: post #33
Sangermaine wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because that would cost the companies more and they're happy to get away with paying less. It's really not a mystery.

In the US, employees must still be paid minimum wage. Depending on the state, an employer may count tips toward this amount. If an employee reports $0 in tips, the employer must pay them $7.25/hr. While I would like to believe that what you say is true, I find it hard to be true. I think the bigger issues are at play whether it's is the fact that minimum wages need to be adjusted, a more modern solution is needed to…

I waited tables while in college and made $2.10/hr +tips, which usually gave me $80-90 after tipping-out the bar/'bussers.' I also currently frequent a few bars, and these folks normally net $200+/shift. The lack of guaranteed wages, also allows them to under-report their earning WRT taxes.

Tipping in the service industry in the US is part of the culture, which has been historically difficult to change by declaration.

Re: Casualties of the Cashless Society: Those Who Get Seasonal Tips

#60

Post by lazerpants »

greggarious wrote: post #54

Do people not carry cash? Maybe the types who have an apartment with a doorman in Manhattan don't. But I (a "millenial") often go to bars and restaurants that are cash only. Eventually, I found it was easier keep budget my "entertainment" in cash. Visually being able to see how much I have, how much I'm taking out helps. Being able to see that amount grow if I'm frugal one month feels good too. I have friends who cla…

Anecdotally, New Yorkers (of all varieties) carry some cash most of the time. There are just too many places that do not accept cards in NYC for people to go cashless. My friends in Denver and LA almost never seem to have cash, and are always surprised that it is a problem when they visit NYC.
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