Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

What People Think You Can’t Say in Silicon Valley

medium.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

141–150 of 181 posts

Re: What People Think You Can’t Say in Silicon Valley

#141

Post by vxNsr »

gjjrfcbugxbhf wrote: post #81
spiznnx wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I want Silicon Valley to be a place where you can publicly hold extreme views and not be a huge social liability to anyone you associate with (employer, friends).

The thing is you are free to hold and expose extreme views - and I strongly support your right to do so and not to be subject to persecution from the state for doing so. However I also have the right to not associate with you if I think that you are a dick.

Ugh, so done with this xkcd.

Ignoring people who we don't agree with is how we got to a place where supporting your political party was more important than having an ideology you could morally justify.

I personally lean fairly far to the right but I spend a lot of time listening to NPR, reading slate, and other pretty lefty publications. When I talk to people who only consume one side of the media, whether it's right or left, I feel like I'm talking to a wall of nonsense. People have so little understanding of those they disagree with and will dismiss them with "they're a bunch of idiots" so quickly that their position has no basis in reality. I'm not saying we should give everyone a platform, I'm saying that if someone says "all the rich should be killed" or "gay men don't know love" each position despite being on diametrically opposite sides of our current political landscape need to be understood if we want to move forward.

Re: What People Think You Can’t Say in Silicon Valley

#142

Post by forgottenpass »

vxNsr wrote: post #3

So basically people with opinions on both extremes feel marginalized and unheard. I guess that's maybe a message to consider a more nuanced position.

Opinions within the overton window are not inherently more nuanced.

There's a line I like about this: "Hegemony means never having to admit you have an agenda."

Re: What People Think You Can’t Say in Silicon Valley

#143

Post by aseow »

insickness wrote: post #131
aseow wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chances are this didn't have so much to do with open debate as making a faux pas. 1. Scandinavian society is largely based on that biology isn't a good enough justification for inequality. Unless you're being very specific you also end up making an argument against Scandinavia equality. Which is something that many Scandinavians would obviously disagree with. (the argument, not necessarily the arguing). 2. Scandinavi…

> Presenting a casual theory to someone in the field is generally not a good idea. I don't buy that at all. As long as the argument is based on science, there's no reason you can close your ears to other fields of study that could affect your own. > The research of biological traits doesn't seem to support the large gender difference in technology. Nor does the research support that the large difference in due to soc…

> I don't buy that at all. As long as the argument is based on science, there's no reason you can close your ears to other fields of study that could affect your own.

Keeping your mind open to other fields as a researcher doesn't mean, nor is reliant on, having to accommodate casual opinions over dinner.

> Do a search for the Swedish gender equality paradox.

I've read about it, I'm not convinced. If gender equality overall was the main culprit for gender inequality among professions we should see a difference between similar European countries with different levels of equality. According to the figures on the web page of the book popularizing the theory, the UK is far less gender equal than Sweden. Yet, the UK seem to have a lesser percentage of female engineers than Sweden. Just to name one example.

What seem more plausible is that inequality tends to correlate with development. The less time a country has been "developed", the less gender equality there is. But being "developed" recently also mean that you have less cultural baggage.

Sweden is an old engineering culture dating back to at least Alfred Nobel (of Nobel Prize fame). Ericsson was formed in 1876, ASEA in 1883, Volvo in 1927 etc. It also avoided the second world war, when women in other countries "got their break" in technology. And has since the 80s had one of the strongest informal computer cultures in the world. This is obviously quite different from an emerging economy were much of the industry has formed in recent decades.

Re: What People Think You Can’t Say in Silicon Valley

#144

Post by curun1r »

TheAceOfHearts wrote: post #55
evangelista wrote: post #11

“A lot of the ideas here will not actually get you ostracized from Silicon Valley society.” Oh dude you have just not been paying attention. Can you show me a single example of someone in tech who publicly expresses, at any point, any of the beliefs which are “not allowed?” I’m looking for one. Find me one person on Twitter in tech aside from John McAfee or Peter Theil who would dare. Sam Altman was good enough to st…

I agree with some of the points you make, and I think they're pretty reasonable positions to take. But I'm curious as to the arguments against all gender bathrooms? I've visited tons of restaurants over the years that just had a single restroom, and it's never been a problem. When you have people over they might use your bathroom, and that's also not considered a problem. Heck, at all the doctor's offices I recall vi…

> But I'm curious as to the arguments against all gender bathrooms?

In college, my freshman-year dorm bathroom was unisex. It initially created huge complaints from everyone. The women complained that the toilets were always messy and the men complained that the toilets were always occupied. Those may be stereotypes, but they're also frequently true. We eventually resolved our issues by designating 1 stall as "standing only" and the other 2 as "sitting only" to ensure that men could always pee without a wait and women could always sit without having to clean first.

But that only worked because we could impose those kinds of rules. A public bathroom is a different matter and I'll bet both genders get annoyed with having to share with the other absent those kinds of imposed rules.

Note that this kind of thing can be cultural as well. At my last job, the non-Asian women complained about some of their Asian counterparts' bathroom use. It seems that women who grew up with squat toilets liked to stand on the seats so they could use their preferred squatting technique. This resulted in much the same sort of messes that result from men standing when they pee.

Re: What People Think You Can’t Say in Silicon Valley

#145

Post by gaius »

WillPostForFood wrote: post #20
bdamm wrote: post #8

"Silicon Valley" is a workplace, and it's generally considered rude to bring your political views into the workplace. Everyone has met the very passionate on both the left and the right, and having someone stand outside your cube or in the lunch line trying to "win" you over to their view just isn't conducive to getting your work done and making money.

It isn't political debate that it is the issue, it is the absolute assumption that everyone agrees with the standard SV dogma, so people say political things all the time, with no intent to debate, because they are just the accepted truth. A subtle example would be trashing "flyover" states. There is no intent to debate whether people from Texas are rednecks, but people feel free to say it.

A subtle example would be trashing "flyover" states. There is no intent to debate whether people from Texas are rednecks, but people feel free to say it.

Similarly the Brexit vote revealed alot about people's true characters and beliefs. The vote largely broke down along class lines, working class for Leave, middle class for Remain. And those middle class types, who tirelessly virtue signal about how left-wing they are, when confronted with what the actual Workers really want, are quick to condemn the entire lot as racist mouth-breathing, knuckle-dragging morons. Class divisions are never far from the surface in the UK.

Re: What People Think You Can’t Say in Silicon Valley

#146

Post by tzs »

evangelista wrote: post #11

“A lot of the ideas here will not actually get you ostracized from Silicon Valley society.” Oh dude you have just not been paying attention. Can you show me a single example of someone in tech who publicly expresses, at any point, any of the beliefs which are “not allowed?” I’m looking for one. Find me one person on Twitter in tech aside from John McAfee or Peter Theil who would dare. Sam Altman was good enough to st…

What do you mean by "conservatives"?

I've occasionally advocated online policies that were taken from Ronald Reagan or the first President Bush or from their leading cabinet members and advisors and not run into any problems in liberal forums online.

I got banned from /r/republican for advocating such policies.

Conservatism today has been largely taken over by the extreme right. Conservative political leaders thought they could court the extremists like white supremacists, anti-immigration fear mongers, religious bigots, conspiracy theorists, and just plain nutcases and the like for their votes but would be able to keep them under control. They were wrong.

Re: What People Think You Can’t Say in Silicon Valley

#147

Post by curun1r »

dvfjsdhgfv wrote: post #129

This one is interesting: > “Most successful entrepreneurs are simply lucky.” Probably it's because "common wisdom" says it's the result of being smart and hard work. But if luck plays such a big role (and let's be honest, it does - there are also studies confirming that), it's difficult to be proud of your success. Happy - yes. Proud? No more than a lottery winner. For many successful people this would be an insult.

There's an old saying (IIRC, attributed to Seneca) that luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity. I like that way of looking at things because it neither minimizes the work and insight that someone put into their success nor refuses to acknowledge that factors outside their control also contributed.

Re: What People Think You Can’t Say in Silicon Valley

#148

Post by gaius »

curun1r wrote: post #144
TheAceOfHearts wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with some of the points you make, and I think they're pretty reasonable positions to take. But I'm curious as to the arguments against all gender bathrooms? I've visited tons of restaurants over the years that just had a single restroom, and it's never been a problem. When you have people over they might use your bathroom, and that's also not considered a problem. Heck, at all the doctor's offices I recall vi…

> But I'm curious as to the arguments against all gender bathrooms? In college, my freshman-year dorm bathroom was unisex. It initially created huge complaints from everyone. The women complained that the toilets were always messy and the men complained that the toilets were always occupied. Those may be stereotypes, but they're also frequently true. We eventually resolved our issues by designating 1 stall as "standi…

The women complained that the toilets were always messy and the men complained that the toilets were always occupied

I've worked in a gym and bars, back when I was a student, so I have been in women's changing rooms/bathrooms regularly, when we closed up, to clean. Not everywhere has dedicated cleaning staff; sometimes the lifeguards or the bartenders do it at the end of their (our) shift. It's true that men tend to miss and pee on the floor. Alot. But good God, the state of the women's...

Re: What People Think You Can’t Say in Silicon Valley

#149

Post by leereeves »

aseow wrote: post #116
insickness wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"A non-nerd reads it as: I want to kick out all X from tech. / I consider X inferior." I was out on an internet date with Scandinavian woman a few years ago. She was some type of sociological researcher, which interested me. I told her that part of the discrepancy in representation between genders in tech could be biologically oriented and she immediately said, "I don't want to hear arguments from biology!" She said…

Chances are this didn't have so much to do with open debate as making a faux pas. 1. Scandinavian society is largely based on that biology isn't a good enough justification for inequality. Unless you're being very specific you also end up making an argument against Scandinavia equality. Which is something that many Scandinavians would obviously disagree with. (the argument, not necessarily the arguing). 2. Scandinavi…

Scandinavian "equality" is a lie.

"Nearly two-thirds of all university degrees in Sweden are awarded to women." Obviously unequal. But they brag about it and call it equality.

https://sweden.se/society/gender-equality-in-sweden/

And when that inequality was noticed and affirmative action began to benefit men, affirmative action was outlawed.

http://arhiva.dalje.com/en-world/sweden-to-abolish-affirmati...

Their definition of "equality" ignores vast inequalities favoring women.

Re: What People Think You Can’t Say in Silicon Valley

#150

Post by tarsinge »

korax wrote: post #111
tarsinge wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can of understand her reaction (I would have had the same) and for me it’s in fact not very dangerous: - to my knowledge it’s impossible to separate biology and culture with the data we have - some discriminations were and are made by wrongfully attributing it to biological traits - since it’s hard or impossible to separate things a lot of people (myself included) adopt « it’s not biology it’s culture » by default…

This leaves me wondering: What do you consider to be the right context for public debates about these thorny issues? What besides communicating with each other about those issues will move us forward? I don't think they will go away by themselves and I agree that some cannot be resolved, but then we should politely agree to disagree, after having explained our reasoning for each other's viewpoints, no? Disclaimer: I…

It depends of the issues we are talking of.

What I'm saying is that introducing biology at this point in the debate, by looking if the inequality is "natural" because phenotype A or chromosome B gives you some edge or not in science or other discipline, is kind of irrelevant given the weight of culture in our societies.

I find it even dangerous because I don't think a lot of people are ready to understand the subtleties of a shift in a normal distribution (if one is present), and it'll just give them a wrong/misused "scientific" evidence for reinforcing their prejudices. Because I can't teach critical thinking in minutes I now resort to "it's always cultural" and try to move the debate forward to the (IMHO) main causes.

(not a native english speaker so sorry if I missed your point)

Post reply on HN