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What People Think You Can’t Say in Silicon Valley

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Re: What People Think You Can’t Say in Silicon Valley

#111

Post by korax »

tarsinge wrote: post #96
insickness wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"A non-nerd reads it as: I want to kick out all X from tech. / I consider X inferior." I was out on an internet date with Scandinavian woman a few years ago. She was some type of sociological researcher, which interested me. I told her that part of the discrepancy in representation between genders in tech could be biologically oriented and she immediately said, "I don't want to hear arguments from biology!" She said…

I can of understand her reaction (I would have had the same) and for me it’s in fact not very dangerous: - to my knowledge it’s impossible to separate biology and culture with the data we have - some discriminations were and are made by wrongfully attributing it to biological traits - since it’s hard or impossible to separate things a lot of people (myself included) adopt « it’s not biology it’s culture » by default…

This leaves me wondering:

What do you consider to be the right context for public debates about these thorny issues?

What besides communicating with each other about those issues will move us forward?

I don't think they will go away by themselves and I agree that some cannot be resolved, but then we should politely agree to disagree, after having explained our reasoning for each other's viewpoints, no?

Disclaimer: I work in this space and we get this reaction quite often, so I am happy to read your thoughts on this.

Re: What People Think You Can’t Say in Silicon Valley

#112

Post by rectang »

olavk wrote: post #49

As someone living far away from SV, this is fascinating reading. But I think the survey could be more precise about what "can't say" really means. Will you get literally ostracized for holding the viewpoint in private or on a blog, or will you get fired for bringing it up in the workplace? I personally believe some viewpoints really are inappropriate to bring up in a professional working environment. If I genuinely b…

> Will you get literally ostracized for holding the viewpoint in private or on a blog

Yes, that can happen. If you argue on your blog that red-headed people are inherently inferior developers and it gets back to your colleagues, there will be people who treat you differently.

Re: What People Think You Can’t Say in Silicon Valley

#114

Post by nhaehnle »

stared wrote: post #57

My impression is that it is not only about topics, but also perceived intentions (and if you step, however unintentionally, on a trigger (of a landmine)). I wrote Dating for Nerds: Gender differences ( http://p.migdal.pl/2017/09/30/dating-for-nerds-gender-differ... ) and got no backlash (much to my surprise, though). From my experience nerds (and aspies in particular) talk mostly to exchange information (learn, share…

> I wrote Dating for Nerds: Gender differences (http://p.migdal.pl/2017/09/30/dating-for-nerds-gender-differ...) and got no backlash (much to my surprise, though).

Skimming through it, it does seem pretty even-handed. Although I'd like to point out that you're writing a "guide for nerds" and consistently addressing the reader as if they were a man. Women can be nerds, too. It's fair to have a guide for male nerds, since the experience is bound to be quite different for men vs. women, but it'd make sense to actually point that out.

Re: What People Think You Can’t Say in Silicon Valley

#115

Post by eref »

tarsinge wrote: post #96
insickness wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"A non-nerd reads it as: I want to kick out all X from tech. / I consider X inferior." I was out on an internet date with Scandinavian woman a few years ago. She was some type of sociological researcher, which interested me. I told her that part of the discrepancy in representation between genders in tech could be biologically oriented and she immediately said, "I don't want to hear arguments from biology!" She said…

I can of understand her reaction (I would have had the same) and for me it’s in fact not very dangerous: - to my knowledge it’s impossible to separate biology and culture with the data we have - some discriminations were and are made by wrongfully attributing it to biological traits - since it’s hard or impossible to separate things a lot of people (myself included) adopt « it’s not biology it’s culture » by default…

.

Re: What People Think You Can’t Say in Silicon Valley

#116

Post by aseow »

insickness wrote: post #83
stared wrote: post #57

My impression is that it is not only about topics, but also perceived intentions (and if you step, however unintentionally, on a trigger (of a landmine)). I wrote Dating for Nerds: Gender differences ( http://p.migdal.pl/2017/09/30/dating-for-nerds-gender-differ... ) and got no backlash (much to my surprise, though). From my experience nerds (and aspies in particular) talk mostly to exchange information (learn, share…

"A non-nerd reads it as: I want to kick out all X from tech. / I consider X inferior." I was out on an internet date with Scandinavian woman a few years ago. She was some type of sociological researcher, which interested me. I told her that part of the discrepancy in representation between genders in tech could be biologically oriented and she immediately said, "I don't want to hear arguments from biology!" She said…

Chances are this didn't have so much to do with open debate as making a faux pas.

1. Scandinavian society is largely based on that biology isn't a good enough justification for inequality. Unless you're being very specific you also end up making an argument against Scandinavia equality. Which is something that many Scandinavians would obviously disagree with. (the argument, not necessarily the arguing).

2. Scandinavians, compared to other people, have few things in modern history to be ashamed of. Unfortunately eugenics is one of those few things. [0]

3. Presenting a casual theory to someone in the field is generally not a good idea. Maybe especially so if it's in a social setting, if your theory states the importance of a competing field and/or if you are part of the historic majority addressing the historic minority. Since them not being taken seriously can be an issue.

4. The research of biological traits doesn't seem to support the large gender difference in technology. The overlap between men and women is large, the correlation between gender traits and e.g. intelligence is weak and differences to other fields seem hard to explain. Even if you accept the idea that women don't like x and technology has a lot of x it's hard to explain why technology must have a lot of x. Other than being dominated for a long time by people who like x. At least while establishing causation, or even correlation, between the factors.

[0] http://www.economist.com/node/155244

Re: What People Think You Can’t Say in Silicon Valley

#117

Post by olavk »

rectang wrote: post #112
olavk wrote: post #49

As someone living far away from SV, this is fascinating reading. But I think the survey could be more precise about what "can't say" really means. Will you get literally ostracized for holding the viewpoint in private or on a blog, or will you get fired for bringing it up in the workplace? I personally believe some viewpoints really are inappropriate to bring up in a professional working environment. If I genuinely b…

> Will you get literally ostracized for holding the viewpoint in private or on a blog Yes, that can happen. If you argue on your blog that red-headed people are inherently inferior developers and it gets back to your colleagues, there will be people who treat you differently.

Oh certainly, but that does not necessarily mean you "can't say" such things. I would definitely treat a colleague differently if I discover they write a blog arguing in favor of Hungarian Notation. Of course people will judge your character. But if such a blog post would get you fired then it would be fair to say you "can't say" it.

As an example, Peter Thiel (if I remember correctly) criticized women having the vote. Certainly a controversial viewpoint, but not controversial enough to get him ostracized. But his support for Trump did get him ostracized to some extent. I think this shows the difference between what is just controversial and what is considered unacceptable in SV.

Re: What People Think You Can’t Say in Silicon Valley

#118

Post by apenwarr »

spiznnx wrote: post #66
pjc50 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> should not be acceptable to society So .. what level of violence against transgender people does this justify? Or is the hope that they can be bullied into suicide so you can pretend it's their fault?

None. I don't mean current transgender people should be outcast, but we should begin to understand its external effects. They too are victims of stereotype. They chose (perhaps felt forced to chose) to change their body to fit the stereotype. But the problem with being unable to discuss this is that people who are beginning to question their cis identity may not see the other option: being yourself in your own body,…

You and your S.O. are conflating gender identity, physical gender, and expression. Basic transgenderism is very simple: the uncanny feeling that your physical gender is wrong. You have male parts but they don’t feel like they should be there (kind of like a phantom limb), or female parts, or vice versa. There is ample research showing that this can manifest extremely early (3-4 years of age anyway), long before cultural training about gender roles can play a part. You cannot simply tell these people to try harder and accept their assigned birth gender; that’s like telling gay people they should be straight because it would be easier to fit in. Well, yeah, it would. But it doesn’t work.

Now, there are certainly people who are not transgender in that specific way, but want to express aspects of the stereotypical “other” gender or both genders. That’s a different thing, and they have a right to that too, but it’s very wrong, and misleading, to put all these people into a single bucket.

Of course, it should be unsurprising that people who are “physically transgender”, besides feeling there is a physical problem, might want to express themselves differently too. The fact that these two characteristics are often correlated may be what is steering you wrong.

Re: What People Think You Can’t Say in Silicon Valley

#119

Post by aninhumer »

spiznnx wrote: post #66
pjc50 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> should not be acceptable to society So .. what level of violence against transgender people does this justify? Or is the hope that they can be bullied into suicide so you can pretend it's their fault?

None. I don't mean current transgender people should be outcast, but we should begin to understand its external effects. They too are victims of stereotype. They chose (perhaps felt forced to chose) to change their body to fit the stereotype. But the problem with being unable to discuss this is that people who are beginning to question their cis identity may not see the other option: being yourself in your own body,…

I suggest you talk to more actual trans people. I thought like you for a long time, but these concerns are based on assumptions about trans people, not the reality.

>They too are victims of stereotype.

Most trans people are well aware that the gender presentations they're conforming to are stereotypes, and indeed many would quite like to be butch transwomen or twink transmen, but find it very difficult to be accepted presenting that way. They are forced to conform to stereotypes by wider society, not by the ideas of trans people. That said, trans people often do choose and enjoy quite stereotypical presentations, and when they do, it's basically for the same reason that plenty of ardent cis feminists do: Just because you recognise the socialisation behind your preferences doesn't mean you can easily escape it.

> But the problem with being unable to discuss this

Trans spaces actively discuss a wide variety of gender identity experiences and possibilities, and encourage questioning people to explore their own experiences, and find the relationship with gender that feels right for them. The message is not "these are the things you're allowed to be" it's "do whatever makes you feel comfortable".

>may not see the other option: being yourself in your own body

Most trans people will have spent a long time uncertain and trying to "be themselves in their own body" before they decide to undertake any medical changes, and many trans people decide to change their bodies only partially or not at all. Very few people are comfortable undergoing extensive bodily changes on a whim. And when they do decide to make these changes, it is often driven by feelings of intense depression inducing discomfort with aspects of their bodies, not simply a desire to look how other people expect.

Re: What People Think You Can’t Say in Silicon Valley

#120

Post by extra88 »

eref wrote: post #115
tarsinge wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can of understand her reaction (I would have had the same) and for me it’s in fact not very dangerous: - to my knowledge it’s impossible to separate biology and culture with the data we have - some discriminations were and are made by wrongfully attributing it to biological traits - since it’s hard or impossible to separate things a lot of people (myself included) adopt « it’s not biology it’s culture » by default…

.

> Romance refers to the biologically rooted game

It's like you didn't read the comment you're replying to. You do not have good evidence that romance is shaped by evolutionary, rather than cultural, forces. Of course there's a biological motivation for procreation but unless you're going to play semantic games and define "romance" as any activity involved in pursuit of procreation, that motivation doesn't explain specific behaviors.

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