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E Pur Si Muove

blog.samaltman.com

791–800 of 853 posts

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#791

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've been to China and you can get thrown in jail for saying the type of things we say re. our political environment. It's jail vs sacking; different aspects of the same reaction.

Huh? In SF I can walk down the street or go into a restaurant and hear people saying how bad Trump is. In China if someone hears you, they will report you and you will be taken in. How in the world is this the same reaction?

To give another example, imagine if the in a short while the Supreme Court rules that in favor of the CO baker and says that he is not compelled to create a cake for a gay wedding. Would you feel safe expressing support for the decision at a lunch with your team?

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#792

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes, some ideas are inherently dangerous. An idea of atoms splitting leads to an atomic bomb, for instance. You're missing the parent's point. An idea not being acted upon is not dangerous. The idea of splitting atoms is not dangerous and the atomic bomb is not dangerous: An atomic bomb getting built (the idea being acted upon) is dangerous. Why are full disclosure policies recommended by security researchers? Why…

> An idea not being acted upon is not dangerous. A gun not being fired is not dangerous. A deadly virus that is contained is not dangerous. Ideas are seeds; action is impossible without them. All you're doing is pushing the responsibility one step further; instead of preventing the spread of ideas we have to prevent their effects. Now instead of dealing with the cause, we have to deal with the symptoms. A meme like "…

A meme like "immigrants are universally good for our country" is also a dangerous idea.

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#793

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OP is talking about the fact that people did not want to talk about their voting choice, for fear of criticism and being ostracized. My mom - and almost all of her friends - are also in that group. What was so surprising about her group of friends was that NONE of them talked about who they were going to vote for, prior to the election - EVEN TO EACH OTHER. AFTER the election they were all shocked to find they all fe…

> Their silence was directly a consequence of the doxx culture that would have meant their entire lives would be thrown into ruin for sharing their point of view. You are making that claim where the evidence is people speculating about a case where they decided not to test the veracity of your claim. Is there any evidence that your Mom and her friends would have been fired for expressing their political views? I'm as…

My mom and her friends do not live in the South. That really should have been your first clue.

About reading multiple newspapers at the breakfast table... well, we've spent the last 50 years destroying the family life, time, and perception of our media and journalism that would lead to that behavior, not to mention social media. Why would it survive?

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#794
If your startup idea is actually offensive to people, maybe take a step back and think about that, or just do it anyway, who cares? Since when are entrepreneurs afraid of "speaking heresies" or "toxic reactions"... from whom? Investors? Friends at dinner parties? Are the reactions of San Franciscans really so unique? Somehow blaming a city for your idea's reception sounds suspect. Also, playing the victim. Getting called out on political incorrectness is not akin to being bludgeoned with a "club."

If you tend towards "constantly thinking about how everything you say might be misinterpreted," congratulations, you're neurotic, like me. It's just something you have to overcome enough to be comfortable expressing your own unique opinions. When you do this, you may find your controversial opinions are merely out of touch. Like you have an IQ of 180 and you've been reading scientific papers and you can prove there are only two genders... and now if you can't express this view over a beer in SOMA without getting some looks, you can't invent the self-driving car or something...?

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#795

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a double standard. Feminists with far more extreme beliefs can talk about their opinions at work. Not only that, but actually have them become official policy. Even policies that intentionally discriminate against men, which is insane. But if you dare to object to it... Against policies that are actually sexist and actually relevant to your work. Make an actual scientific case for your side. Then somehow you are…

> Feminists with far more extreme beliefs can talk about their opinions at work. Please give examples. > Even policies that intentionally discriminate against men, which is insane. Again, provide examples. I hear this argument a lot "poor men are being discriminated by women!!!" and yet I have to see a single shred of evidence of this. Again, for context, I'm a male working in the tech field and I have worked at Goog…

> Please give examples.

Mandatory gender quotas. Women-only lectures, events and benefits.

> What exactly do you propose was Damore's original intent?

Why does it matter. Thats not the point.

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#796

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if Damore had been a woman. What do you think would have happened then. This is just en exercise in public outrage, not in morality, responsibility or the application of ideals.

Had Damore been a woman, she would have to be fired too. I don't really understand this perception that "women get away with everything". The legal department would have as much of an argument to fire a female Damore as they'd have a male Damore.

> Had Damore been a woman, she would have to be fired too.

I seriously doubt that. The public would generally be conflicted about crucifying a woman in the name of women, it would have not arised easily to public knowledge.

To deepen the understanding of the situation, men and women withing google might have shown public agreement of some level with the essay and they havent been fire. People have done threats and attacks of many degrees on Damore because of that essay, which would have been a firable offense in any other circumstance.

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#797

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What is the controversial opinion you’re actually worried about expressing at work? The controversial opinion that free speech should apply to workplaces. Yes lots of people oppose free speech. Some of those people might be willing to fire people over it.

I don't believe you that normal people would fire an employee for saying "free speech should apply to workplaces." I believe there's some other idea that you're talking about expressing and then defending by saying "free speech should apply to workplaces." What is that idea?

Also, your comments basically prove my point.

Apparently, free speech is so controversial, that people like you believe that a person who supports free speech must obviously hold some sort of deep dark evil opinion.

The fact that you automatically assume some nefarious motive, proves that supporting free speech is indeed a controversial opinion to hold, and that it is rational to be worried about being persecuted for believing in it.

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#798
post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

century of poverty, slavery, and hundred million deaths I am genuinely curious about where you get the figure of 100 million deaths from. I also believe that all the societes that had slaves were capitalist ones. But we can both agree that communism leads to poverty although the poorest countries in the world are failed states rather than communist: https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/the-poorest-countries-in...

> I also believe that all the societes that had slaves were capitalist ones. German POWs were kept as slaves until, IDK, the 80's?

They all came home around 1955

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#799

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've been to China and you can get thrown in jail for saying the type of things we say re. our political environment. It's jail vs sacking; different aspects of the same reaction.

Huh? In SF I can walk down the street or go into a restaurant and hear people saying how bad Trump is. In China if someone hears you, they will report you and you will be taken in. How in the world is this the same reaction?

That's a pretty terrible example. Instead try telling people in SF how great Trump is, and see how many friends you make.

(Not that this reflects my opinion of Trump.)

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#800
post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's because most people who take more than a cursory glance sees that there are multiple different ideologies lumped under the same name there, diverse enough that the supporters of some have historically been the most brutal persecutors of supporters of others - Among the millions dead you list are huge numbers of communists that fought against the regimes you complain about, in many cases in open armed conflicts…

> That's because most people who take more than a cursory glance sees that there are multiple different ideologies lumped under the same name there, diverse enough that the supporters of some have historically been the most brutal persecutors of supporters of others This argument would be more credible if the least awful Communist regime wasn’t a toss up between Cuba and Yugoslavia. Every single attempt at actual com…

This is a ludicrous argument.

You're free to argue that actual Marxist socialism is somehow impossible, given that it has not been demonstrated other than at a small scale. That's a matter of opinion.

But the failure of these regimes does not change the fact that they were so far ideologically divorced from Marxist socialism and communism that most of them have met armed resistance from socialists and communists.

And does not change the fact that the name has been used by groups with diametrically opposed world views.

The point was not to argue whether or not socialism is possible or viable in any particular form, but to point out why communism gets treated differently from nazism:

There are only totalitarian nazis, while among people who call themselves communists you find people ranging from totalitarian via supporters of parliamentary democracy, to anarchists, and within those groups the former have throughout the last century been among the ones who have murdered most of the latter.

E.g. during the Spanish Civil War, Stalins Comintern agents were more successful at murdering high-ranking anti-Stalinist communist leaders than Franco's fascists was.

Anti-Stalinist socialists and communists are as opposed, or more so, to the type of regimes you talk about as they are to the nazis or facists

I've personally faced Stalinists who believed I belonged in labour camps because my views on socialism includes a firm belief in democracy, and I've personally made it clear to very same people that if they were to ever gain power, I'll take up arms against them same as I would against fascism or nazism.

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