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E Pur Si Muove

blog.samaltman.com

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Re: E Pur Si Muove

#631

Post by rtpg »

Diederich wrote: post #625
rtpg wrote: post #585

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't mean to be trite, but are you saying this person voted for Trump to "own the libs"? Doing something out of spite like that is a pretty miserable experience...

> are you saying this person voted for Trump to "own the libs"? No, that's not what I said nor is it what I implied. He voted for Trump because, among other reasons, he thought Mrs. Clinton was a terrible candidate and would make a terrible president, and he personally weighed that more heavily than what he knew of Trumps disadvantages. I don't agree with that assessment, but it is reasonable.

>I think that a pretty big chunk of Trump's votes came from people who would otherwise not have voted for him...but did so because they sensed, correctly, that their thoughts, ideas and voices were being marginalized (and demonized) by progressives.

I read that as "we wouldn't vote for Trump, but did anyways because of how progressives see us". Maybe I misread this.

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#632

Post by DoreenMichele »

prepend wrote: post #611
DoreenMichele wrote: post #555

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But isn’t it simplistic to equate all transphobic people with murderers who commit violence against trans people? When your life is on the line, it is generally wise to err on the side of caution. If you assume someone openly transphobic is a threat to your life and you are wrong, you are at worst being rude to them. If you assume they aren't a threat to you and are wrong, you may end up dead (or maimed or otherwise…

By that reasoning you should avoid everyone right? Because all people have a potential for violence. The odds of a trans person being murdered by a transphobic person are phenomenally low. I think you need to balance risk vs return. Just like driving a car has costs and risks it may be worth it to get to the grocery store.

No, not really. Most people are not violent without good reason. But if you are gay, trans or in any group that gets targeted for violence by irrational people without any provocation beyond being a member of that group, you need to consider that open verbal hostility is a potential indicator of willingness to harm you in some way.

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#633

Post by dmode »

sheepmullet wrote: post #603
dmode wrote: post #274

I have no idea what this article was about. As someone who grew up in India, lived extensively in Europe and Arizona before settling down in the Bay Area, and travel to China 2-3 times a year, I find Bay Area by far to be the most open, tolerant, accepting places I have ever lived. And it is not even comparable. And it is borne out by simple stats. People vote with their feet. Bay Area is almost a majority minority a…

> As someone who grew up in India > I find Bay Area by far to be the most open, tolerant, accepting places I have ever lived SF is all about identity politics. Your race, gender, and sexual orientation matters more than your opinions and actions. As a minority you are allowed to have opinions and beliefs that would get a conservative straight white man fired and shunned. I really enjoy pretending to be gay when I go…

I don't live in SF. I live in the Bay Area suburbs. SF represents about 1/7th of Bay Area's population. I was referring to overall Bay Area. Although SF is freaking awesome too

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#634

Post by reednj »

mikeash wrote: post #620
beachy wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Leaning in from outside the US, the path forward is obvious. "Progressives" should embrace guns and reject abortion. That would make them palatable to these mysterious deplorables that seem to hold sway over the US political system, giving them access to the halls of power. Then said progressives, having kept their powder dry, could expend it on what really matters - convincing the deplorables that science is a thing…

Unfortunately, most of the deplorables would just find new reasons to hate Democrats, because their party preference is rooted in tribalism rather than in policy, and you'd scare off lots of lefties who don't think the state should be outlawing important medical procedures.

> Unfortunately, most of the deplorables would just find new reasons to hate Democrats

That is objectively false - Trump won because white voters in the rust belt swung 25 points from Obama to Trump. If you were right that they voted only Republican out of tribalism then Obama would never have won those states.

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#635

Post by mikeash »

reednj wrote: post #634
mikeash wrote: post #620

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, most of the deplorables would just find new reasons to hate Democrats, because their party preference is rooted in tribalism rather than in policy, and you'd scare off lots of lefties who don't think the state should be outlawing important medical procedures.

> Unfortunately, most of the deplorables would just find new reasons to hate Democrats That is objectively false - Trump won because white voters in the rust belt swung 25 points from Obama to Trump. If you were right that they voted only Republican out of tribalism then Obama would never have won those states.

I said "most," not "all." A 25 point swing among white voters in the rust belt does not come anywhere close to disproving "most."

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#636

Post by librvf »

Avshalom wrote: post #263
librvf wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're discussing the situation in present-day tech culture, mostly with regards to Silicon Valley and the Bay Area as compared to China.

The broad history of violent bigotry in the United States does not get magically forgotten by people just because they write code for a living. And that history and that present reality means that many things are not just abstract propositions but are direct threats.

> And that history and that present reality means that many things are not just abstract propositions but are direct threats.

Historical context alone does not make a direct threat. A direct threat is a direct threat, and right now being accused of racism (no matter the truth of it) is far more scary than racism itself.

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#637

Post by stale2002 »

chasing wrote: post #623
stale2002 wrote: post #584

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. How about voicing the controversial opinion that private citizens should have a right to free speech without being fired (as in, believing that free speech should apply to more than just the government). IE, free speech, applied to private companies, as the controversial opinion that a person is getting fired for.

A company has to continue to employ you no matter what dumb things you say at work? (Also, no place worth working for will fire you for saying “private citizens should have the right to free speech without being fired.” What is the controversial opinion you’re actually worried about expressing at work? That Windows Mobile is making a huge comeback? That pina colada Oreos are tasty?)

> What is the controversial opinion you’re actually worried about expressing at work?

The controversial opinion that free speech should apply to workplaces.

Yes lots of people oppose free speech. Some of those people might be willing to fire people over it.

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#638

Post by unityByFreedom »

volgo wrote: post #613
Buldak wrote: post #514

The author says that it's safer to discuss "controversial" ideas in Beijing than America, but I wonder if that's partly because the ideas in question aren't actually controversial in Beijing. Presumably the ideas the author has in mind are those that might be interpreted to impugn certain disadvantaged groups. But if I found it more easy to say "gay people are degenerates" in Beijing, I don't think I would take that…

A lot of people think you have to watch what you say in China, and they almost always are people who have never been there. There are very specific political things you can't do, but otherwise literally not one gives a shit about you. You can say what you want, and unless you specifically go organize a large group of people and screaming in public something politically sensitive, no one cares. Ideally in a society we…

> You can say what you want, and unless you specifically go organize a large group of people and screaming in public something politically sensitive

note: screaming includes what we would call "organizing" and "protesting", including simply using online groups to form such protests.

So, yes, you do have to watch what you say. If you criticize the government for corrupt police or a chemical plant explosion that caused unjust deaths, you can expect to be locked up for an unspecified amount of time and forced to sign a confession of wrongdoing.

Heck, even if you're outside of China you have to watch what you say. Book dealers in Hong Kong have been abducted and held indefinitely in China for selling the wrong books. So much for "one country, two systems"

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#639

Post by chasing »

stale2002 wrote: post #637
chasing wrote: post #623

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A company has to continue to employ you no matter what dumb things you say at work? (Also, no place worth working for will fire you for saying “private citizens should have the right to free speech without being fired.” What is the controversial opinion you’re actually worried about expressing at work? That Windows Mobile is making a huge comeback? That pina colada Oreos are tasty?)

> What is the controversial opinion you’re actually worried about expressing at work? The controversial opinion that free speech should apply to workplaces. Yes lots of people oppose free speech. Some of those people might be willing to fire people over it.

I don't believe you that normal people would fire an employee for saying "free speech should apply to workplaces."

I believe there's some other idea that you're talking about expressing and then defending by saying "free speech should apply to workplaces."

What is that idea?

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#640

Post by du_bing »

Thanks for writing this, as a Chinese Developer, I can get many great and unique opinions on my own country on Hacker News which I would never get on the Internet in China.

I have been watching Sam Altman's sayings for a long time, I believe his judgment is at least reasonable for some reason we cannot see from the article.

Actually as an ordinary Chinese citizen and IT worker, I have always seen SF as the best place in the world to work and create something. However, in recent years, the atmosphere has subtly changed, between Silicon Valley and Beijing, between China and USA.

Such different ideas are always good for understanding the world better.

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