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Overcoming Us vs. Them

nautil.us

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Re: Overcoming Us vs. Them

#111

Post by smichel17 »

ScottBurson wrote: post #74
r00fus wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the biggest thing we're missing in the fight against 2-party system is an actual representative voting scheme. A first-past-the-post [1] voting scheme will always result in 2 parties (assuming it doesn't collapse into a single-party autocracy) due to the spoiler [2] 3rd party vote problem. It's not psychology but basic probability math and game theory. Why is not fixed? Because this is the cheapest way for the mo…

Although I agree with you that the plurality voting system (aka FPTP) is a big problem, I think your theory of why it isn't changed is silly and overlooks the very real difficulties. One of those difficulties is that there isn't a clear winner among the alternatives. Approval voting, the STV(/IRV), and the Borda Count all have adherents, who disparage the other two. Worse, none of them is perfect. For example, STV an…

What's the downside to score/range voting? Voters give each candidate a score (say, from 1-10), and the highest average wins.

I've no particular expertise in this area; I know about it from http://rangevoting.org/

Re: Overcoming Us vs. Them

#112

Post by [deleted] »

wefweoiu23j wrote: post #69
frgtpsswrdlame wrote: post #2

I think this is going to be the next big challenge in social tech: Contact: The consequences of growing up amid diversity just discussed bring us to the effects of prolonged contact on Us/Theming. In the 1950s the psychologist Gordon Allport proposed “contact theory.” Inaccurate version: bring Us-es and Thems together (say, teenagers from two hostile nations in a summer camp), animosities disappear, similarities star…

I think the answer is partially in your quote: emphasis the similarities. Women of all colors, backgrounds, and economic statuses are sexually harassed and assaulted. Men of all colors, backgrounds, and economic statuses are sexually harassed and assaulted. These are facts of reality. Our culture makes it such that women are more likely to be on the receiving end. But it doesn't make the fact that both sexes in vario…

[deleted]

Re: Overcoming Us vs. Them

#113

Post by Boothroid »

Wow, liberal fascism distilled, pretty much a call to arms for the destruction of individual cultures and global imposition of wrongthink. South Park's Death Camp of Tolerance comes to mind. I await the introduction of the reeducation gulags.

Edit: I'm just amazed that people cannot see this guy is blantantly arguing for the exact thing he claims to despise:

'Meanwhile, give the right-of-way to people driving cars with the “Mean people suck” bumper sticker, and remind everyone that we’re in this together against Lord Voldemort and House Slytherin.'

He goes on at length about why us and them is bad and then LITERALLY ARGUES FOR an us and them attitude :|

Re: Overcoming Us vs. Them

#114

Post by Danihan »

woodandsteel wrote: post #105

In the last part of the article Sapolsky talks about how to overcome us-versus-them dynamics. I recently came across an organization that seems to be doing some remarkable work along these lines. It's called Better Angels. https://better-angels.org/

>Better Angels Media Network (BAMN)

How ironic that their Network has the same acronym as one of the most violent Anti-Fa groups - By Any Means Necessary (BAMN).

Very nice organization -- I was impressed with their video from Ohio.

Re: Overcoming Us vs. Them

#115

Post by fareesh »

tyleraldrich wrote: post #78
IronWolve wrote: post #29

Its too late, tech is growing more divided in hiring and its customer base. Now that google and other tech startups make blacklists of "them" that they want to block promotions and ban from working with people and groups, it seems us vs them is well embraced by the tech community. And left-leaning google/facebook/youtube/twitter using alt-right as a banner to ban conservatives, then using "Truth masters" like snopes/…

> left-leaning google/facebook/youtube/twitter using alt-right as a banner to ban conservatives What? Citation needed. I haven't heard of any conservatives getting banned from these services due to their political affiliation. > Then when programmers are on a list, or a project doesn't support the diversity license, you get banned from github, hackathons or talks. Again, what? Has this happened? I've never heard of t…

> What? Citation needed. I haven't heard of any conservatives getting banned from these services due to their political affiliation.

See: Professor Gad Saad, whose YouTube videos are regularly demonetized. Sometimes they are demonetized while they are processing. Dennis Prager's "Prager University" is currently suing Google for a similar situation with their channel (https://www.prageru.com/press-release-prager-university-prag... and https://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2016/10/14/youtube-rest...)

> Again, what? Has this happened? I've never heard of this, and this seems like fairly extreme hyperbole.

There is this tweet from the npm CEO, which I subjectively find quite disgusting. Not that it affects me, but I care about javascript and node, not the identity or background of the speaker. I would even listen to Pol Pot if he gave a good talk on these subjects. https://twitter.com/izs/status/911105515798720513

Then there was this incident - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14480868. The link of the submission is no longer relevant, but the first comment is consistent with how I also feel about the subject. It covers what happened as well.

> What is your argument here? Tech companies are against conservative americans? If reading HN has taught me anything, the tech scene is full of conservatives and libertarians.

That does not counter the points made. They exist, but they are censored, so it is not in anyone's interest in terms of job security or career advancement, to express their conservative views. Diversity and multiculturalism is essentially the equivalent of halal or kosher now. If it isn't there, seemingly nothing can be done. In general, conservatives these days don't subscribe to these ideas of classification on the basis of various identity properties, but if you do not think this way, there seems to be no place for you. James Damore is a good example of this as well. You are apparently not allowed to think differently, which is sort of ironic, coming from the birthplace of Apple.

Re: Overcoming Us vs. Them

#116

Post by SamReidHughes »

creaghpatr wrote: post #36
legitster wrote: post #8

This is where countries with some sort of mandatory service may have us beat. And maybe it explains why American policy was so focused after the big national wars. I don't think there's a better way to force camaraderie. But then it becomes Us vs Them on the other side of the border.

I am very in favor of mandatory service as a strategy to improve nations but I do want to point out that some of the most impressive ones (South Korea and Israel come to mind) are extremely homogenous.

Singapore comes to mind.

Re: Overcoming Us vs. Them

#117

Post by IronWolve »

yosito wrote: post #93
IronWolve wrote: post #29

Its too late, tech is growing more divided in hiring and its customer base. Now that google and other tech startups make blacklists of "them" that they want to block promotions and ban from working with people and groups, it seems us vs them is well embraced by the tech community. And left-leaning google/facebook/youtube/twitter using alt-right as a banner to ban conservatives, then using "Truth masters" like snopes/…

> Tech is sick with "us" vs "them" mentality and its spreading. Perhaps in your case, a little introspection will reveal an "us" vs "them" attitude which you already hold.

>> Tech is sick with "us" vs "them" mentality and its spreading.

>Perhaps in your case, a little introspection will reveal an "us" vs "them" attitude which you already hold.

Lol, Just because I can see the trees in the forest, doesn't make me want to chop them down.

Re: Overcoming Us vs. Them

#118

Post by Parcissons »

Swizec wrote: post #54
anigbrowl wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Forced anonymity perhaps? Suppose you're a Striper and I'm a Dotter (from the deadly enemy Stripe and Dot tribes), but we both like to play guitar. Well if you show up on my guitar forum I'll be 'who let that filthy Striper in here?!' and will interpret even innocent participation as attempts to stripe up the place, regardless of whether I have been trying to take it over for the Dots or not. But if we're just Guitar…

I remember internet forums as a teenager. Back when people didn't use real names and profile pics were of random characters or celebrities not our faces. It honestly never crossed my mind that the people I was talking to could be anything other than white and mostly guys. I come from a country where races basically don't exist so that worldview made sense kinda. Sometimes I wonder how many racist jokes I made to peop…

Yeah, maybee they choose rather to have it the other way. Maybee they prefered real, honest - even though stupid opinions between cooperative work on whatever topic over a eggshell walking culture that prevents any meaningfull discussion by turning the public stage into a constant social drama bedlam stage. Because those people you did hang out with, where more interested in modding quake, doing whatever it is you did- then milking society for what its got.

Re: Overcoming Us vs. Them

#119

Post by Danihan »

thomastjeffery wrote: post #95
malvosenior wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. Again, I have the polar opposite position. I can trust an idea because I can evaluate it on its own merit. I can’t trust a person because they’re inherently driven by emotion instead of logic. I may trust someone in some capacity but not another. For instance I might trust someone to feed my dog but not invest my money. I also see the problem with “us vs them” with the “us” side of the equation. I’m a un…

> I also see the problem with “us vs them” with the “us” side of the equation. As someone who is often mischaracterized in a "them" category, I have the same frustrations. For example, my dad, rather often, dismisses real conversation as me being a "liberal", a group which he refuses (possibly cannot) define. Rather than tackle the ideas themselves, he chooses to dismiss them, and, whether he recognizes this fact, us…

At a certain point, other people's ideas just don't matter that much.

For someone who has years of expertise, or who has spent decades fine-tuning his or her worldview based on real evidence and life experience... what need to they have of uninformed opinions or debate.

At some point, it only slows you down.

All that matters is what you can or can't achieve, and that comes down more to persuasion.

Re: Overcoming Us vs. Them

#120

Post by wazyk »

pjc50 wrote: post #98
otakucode wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first thing to always keep in mind is that intentionally attempting to engineer social behaviors has historically been the single most devastatingly destructive motivation. Far more destructive than war, famine, disease, or other means of human suffering and death. It gave us eugenics, concentration camps, political purges, the obesity epidemic, and all manner of other ills. It backfires consistently and almost a…

"intentionally attempting to engineer social behaviors" is the history of civilisation, surely?

Exactly, so perhaps civilization is the problem.
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