Live data from Hacker News

Overcoming Us vs. Them

nautil.us

71–80 of 249 posts

Re: Overcoming Us vs. Them

#71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am very in favor of mandatory service as a strategy to improve nations but I do want to point out that some of the most impressive ones (South Korea and Israel come to mind) are extremely homogenous.

I have never understood this idea. Why would it be beneficial to have your citizenry trained to kill?

There's several possible benefits:

- Enemy nations will be somewhat less motivated to invade if they know they will be facing a population that is entirely armed and ready to resist.

- Putting the population into the service of the country helps build a sense of national cohesion by giving a shared sense of mission and duty.

- Training the citizens to fight could also be a tool to help prevent dictatorships where the military persecutes the people; a military of citizen-soldiers would be less likely to see their own people as a "them" and more as an "us."

Re: Overcoming Us vs. Them

#72

In America today, you've got multitude of "us vs them" dynamics - anti-terrorist, liberal-vs-conservative, rich-vs-poor, black-vs-white, etc. And at lot of this comes because, as the article says, "us versus them" is a powerful psychological dynamic. Given that that current American society is hyper-competitive, it seems likely this situation will continue. If pulling "us versus them" is akin to chemical warfare - a…

"Us vs them" certainly isn't a weapon of last resort. White identity politics was at its peak when whites were least threatened by minority groups, and the same is true today with leftist identitarians. I wouldn't go so far as to say identity politics is caused by a powerful ingroup, but it certainly isn't caused by an oppressed ingroup.

Re: Overcoming Us vs. Them

#73
post #12

Unpopular opinion - Is this something that we should seek to overcome entirely? These judgement calls are hard-wired into us for a reason. Whilst there are scenarios in which it is bad, there are scenarios in which it is good.

We can overcome them without removing them, by extending "us" widely enough. This is how a number of religions handled it, leading to their expansion over large swaths of diverse nations. Seeing most everyone on Earth as ingroup improves collaboration and thus propels culture / prosperity.

Aren't most Indians Hindu yet they still judge and separate each other by the shade of their skin or the family they were born in?

There is no extending, there's always going to be some arbitrary point for Us vs Them.

Re: Overcoming Us vs. Them

#74
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a catch 22, since that divisiveness strengthens the divide, and that divide strengthens the two parties. The biggest thing we are missing in the fight against the two party system is confidence. We need people to be confident that they can elect someone from outside the two parties, and that those people can effect change in politics. The problem is that individuals see greater participation by others as a depen…

No, the biggest thing we're missing in the fight against 2-party system is an actual representative voting scheme. A first-past-the-post [1] voting scheme will always result in 2 parties (assuming it doesn't collapse into a single-party autocracy) due to the spoiler [2] 3rd party vote problem. It's not psychology but basic probability math and game theory. Why is not fixed? Because this is the cheapest way for the mo…

Although I agree with you that the plurality voting system (aka FPTP) is a big problem, I think your theory of why it isn't changed is silly and overlooks the very real difficulties.

One of those difficulties is that there isn't a clear winner among the alternatives. Approval voting, the STV(/IRV), and the Borda Count all have adherents, who disparage the other two.

Worse, none of them is perfect. For example, STV and BC are both susceptible to strategic voting. I recall reading about some municipality that decided to try STV. IIRC, in the very next election they had two competent but extreme candidates at opposite ends of the political spectrum, and a centrist generally regarded as less competent (and who got a much smaller number of first-place votes than either of the others). The electorate was so evenly divided that the centrist won; the voters were so upset with this outcome that they ditched the STV and went back to PV (plurality). Evidently they would have been happier with one of the two extremists, even though that would have been the "wrong" choice for almost half of them.

We could object that none of the three candidates was obviously a great choice, and that if voters really preferred their opposite-extreme candidate over the centrist, they should have voted that way. But it's easy to see why they didn't. We could also object that AV would have given a better result in this case, picking whichever extreme candidate got the most votes and ignoring a widely-disliked centrist. But STV tends to be an easier sell, perhaps because it maintains the notion of "one person, one vote". And finally, we could object that they were too quick to pull the plug and should have given STV another chance, having learned a lesson about the importance of finding competent centrist candidates.

But their conclusion was, they tried an alternative system and it didn't work.

I tend to favor AV personally, as it's relatively resistant to pathological outcomes, but have to admit that it has another problem: it's the least tamper-resistant. With PV and STV, the total number of votes counted shouldn't be greater than the number of voters. AV has a much looser and less useful bound: the total number of votes shouldn't be greater than the product of the number of voters and the number of candidates. That leaves a lot more room for manipulation. In a world where our voting systems are already not as trustworthy as they should be, this is a problem.

Re: Overcoming Us vs. Them

#75

In America today, you've got multitude of "us vs them" dynamics - anti-terrorist, liberal-vs-conservative, rich-vs-poor, black-vs-white, etc. And at lot of this comes because, as the article says, "us versus them" is a powerful psychological dynamic. Given that that current American society is hyper-competitive, it seems likely this situation will continue. If pulling "us versus them" is akin to chemical warfare - a…

I think most of them are caused by the two-party political system in the U.S., where parties do make everything seem like an "us vs them".

For every proposal one party has, the other party tends to have the opposite proposal. Except when it's about giving the military bigger budgets, the NSA more surveillance powers, and expanding U.S. military operations in more countries. On those issues both parties are BFFs.

The two party system has got to go, if for no other reason than that it leaves very little room for the competition of ideas.

Re: Overcoming Us vs. Them

#76

In America today, you've got multitude of "us vs them" dynamics - anti-terrorist, liberal-vs-conservative, rich-vs-poor, black-vs-white, etc. And at lot of this comes because, as the article says, "us versus them" is a powerful psychological dynamic. Given that that current American society is hyper-competitive, it seems likely this situation will continue. If pulling "us versus them" is akin to chemical warfare - a…

Unity against a common enemy has historically put an end to such internal strife. The Second World War wiped away domestic conflicts in the face of an existential threat, and gave a generation of men so much valor as to put them beyond reproach. It was unthinkable to target the men of the Greatest Generation with the kind of attacks and vicious reporting we are used to today, whether they deserved it or not. Edit: I'…

>The Second World War wiped away domestic conflicts in the face of an existential threat, and gave a generation of men so much valor as to put them beyond reproach.

This comment is ignorant of the reality of black military members, both during the war and after.

Re: Overcoming Us vs. Them

#77
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am very in favor of mandatory service as a strategy to improve nations but I do want to point out that some of the most impressive ones (South Korea and Israel come to mind) are extremely homogenous.

Israel is an apartheid state. That is neither homogenous... Or particularly impressive.

[deleted]

Re: Overcoming Us vs. Them

#78

Its too late, tech is growing more divided in hiring and its customer base. Now that google and other tech startups make blacklists of "them" that they want to block promotions and ban from working with people and groups, it seems us vs them is well embraced by the tech community. And left-leaning google/facebook/youtube/twitter using alt-right as a banner to ban conservatives, then using "Truth masters" like snopes/…

> left-leaning google/facebook/youtube/twitter using alt-right as a banner to ban conservatives

What? Citation needed. I haven't heard of any conservatives getting banned from these services due to their political affiliation.

> Then when programmers are on a list, or a project doesn't support the diversity license, you get banned from github, hackathons or talks.

Again, what? Has this happened? I've never heard of this, and this seems like fairly extreme hyperbole.

What is your argument here? Tech companies are against conservative americans? If reading HN has taught me anything, the tech scene is full of conservatives and libertarians.

Re: Overcoming Us vs. Them

#79
post #66

In America today, you've got multitude of "us vs them" dynamics - anti-terrorist, liberal-vs-conservative, rich-vs-poor, black-vs-white, etc. And at lot of this comes because, as the article says, "us versus them" is a powerful psychological dynamic. Given that that current American society is hyper-competitive, it seems likely this situation will continue. If pulling "us versus them" is akin to chemical warfare - a…

Isn't this just the nature of reality though? A never-ending battle for resources and territory? On time lapse, even tree roots are fighting for water, and leaves are fighting for sunlight. I feel like this article might as well be called, "Overcoming Reality." Which the article basically admits, since these in-group / out-group distinctions are so deeply hardwired into our neurology. Yes, cooperation works sometimes…

[deleted]

Re: Overcoming Us vs. Them

#80
post #14

I think this phenomenon is the fundamental problem of any two-party system and is one of the issues in American politics. The "us vs them" feeling is a lot less strong when there are multiple parties. This feeling leads to more divisiveness in politics and eventually trickles down to the whole population.

>I think this phenomenon is the fundamental problem of any two-party system and is one of the issues in American politics

It's a factor, but it wasn't as bad in the past. A larger factor is multiculturalism.

Post reply on HN