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Overcoming Us vs. Them

nautil.us

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Re: Overcoming Us vs. Them

#91

Post by legitster »

zarkov99 wrote: post #67
legitster wrote: post #8

This is where countries with some sort of mandatory service may have us beat. And maybe it explains why American policy was so focused after the big national wars. I don't think there's a better way to force camaraderie. But then it becomes Us vs Them on the other side of the border.

Yes, this works, as does joining a gym where you do some sort of group activity, say a BJJ or other combat sport.

I disagree - at a gym, the experience is completely voluntary and the group is self-selecting. You may be bonding, but with people already like you.

The key with military is being forced to do something you hate alongside complete strangers with little opportunity to socialize outside of the group, under threat of court martial for leaving. And the group of strangers may change at any time. You really have to learn to get along, or work people you don't respect or hate.

Re: Overcoming Us vs. Them

#92

Post by wu-ikkyu »

tfha wrote: post #64

Feel this is very appropriate after the net neutrality thread. Top comment was a very blatent red-vs-blue characterisation, which of course is not the right mentality. If we want to build a better world, we need to work together instead of target eachother.

>Now, what does all of this mean in this great period of history? It means that we've got to stay together. We've got to stay together and maintain unity. You know, whenever Pharaoh wanted to prolong the period of slavery in Egypt, he had a favorite, favorite formula for doing it. What was that? He kept the slaves fighting among themselves. But whenever the slaves get together, something happens in Pharaoh's court, and he cannot hold the slaves in slavery. When the slaves get together, that's the beginning of getting out of slavery.

-Dr. King

Re: Overcoming Us vs. Them

#93

Post by yosito »

IronWolve wrote: post #29

Its too late, tech is growing more divided in hiring and its customer base. Now that google and other tech startups make blacklists of "them" that they want to block promotions and ban from working with people and groups, it seems us vs them is well embraced by the tech community. And left-leaning google/facebook/youtube/twitter using alt-right as a banner to ban conservatives, then using "Truth masters" like snopes/…

> Tech is sick with "us" vs "them" mentality and its spreading.

Perhaps in your case, a little introspection will reveal an "us" vs "them" attitude which you already hold.

Re: Overcoming Us vs. Them

#94

Post by corford »

onewhonknocks wrote: post #7

Unpopular opinion - Is this something that we should seek to overcome entirely? These judgement calls are hard-wired into us for a reason. Whilst there are scenarios in which it is bad, there are scenarios in which it is good.

The (excellent) article agrees with you:

"From massive barbarity to pinpricks of microaggression, Us versus Them has produced oceans of pain. Yet, I don’t think our goal should be to “cure” us of all Us/Them dichotomizing (separate of it being impossible, unless you have no amygdala).

I’m fairly solitary—I’ve spent a lot of my life living alone in a tent in Africa, studying another species. Yet some of my most exquisitely happy moments have come from feeling like an Us, feeling accepted, safe, and not alone, feeling part of something large and enveloping, with a sense of being on the right side and doing both well and good. There are even Us/Thems that I—eggheady, meek, and amorphously pacifistic—would kill or die for.

If we accept that there will always be sides, it’s challenging to always be on the side of angels. Distrust essentialism. Remember that supposed rationality is often just rationalization, playing catch-up with subterranean forces we never suspect. Focus on shared goals. Practice perspective taking. Individuate, individuate, individuate. And recall how often, historically, the truly malignant Thems hid themselves while making third parties the fall guy.

Meanwhile, give the right-of-way to people driving cars with the “Mean people suck” bumper sticker, and remind everyone that we’re in this together against Lord Voldemort and House Slytherin."

Re: Overcoming Us vs. Them

#95

Post by thomastjeffery »

malvosenior wrote: post #55
thomastjeffery wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we can differentiate between trusting people's words and trusting individuals themselves. The distinction is that people who disagree with us are not out to do us harm. We can disagree and work together. Trust is a nuanced subject, which is the very fact the "Us vs. Them" attitude ignores. If we clump everyone who disagrees with "us" into one group, we turn a prudent critical attitude into blatant distrust. I…

Interesting. Again, I have the polar opposite position. I can trust an idea because I can evaluate it on its own merit. I can’t trust a person because they’re inherently driven by emotion instead of logic. I may trust someone in some capacity but not another. For instance I might trust someone to feed my dog but not invest my money. I also see the problem with “us vs them” with the “us” side of the equation. I’m a un…

> I also see the problem with “us vs them” with the “us” side of the equation.

As someone who is often mischaracterized in a "them" category, I have the same frustrations.

For example, my dad, rather often, dismisses real conversation as me being a "liberal", a group which he refuses (possibly cannot) define. Rather than tackle the ideas themselves, he chooses to dismiss them, and, whether he recognizes this fact, uses "Us vs. Them" as a personal excuse.

Because this is an instinct, we are all susceptible. I certainly do not want to blindly consolidate individuals into an undefined group, and dismiss their ideas. I would much rather trust a person's ability to have honest perspective that is different from mine, and learn from that perspective.

Re: Overcoming Us vs. Them

#96

Post by zarkov99 »

legitster wrote: post #91
zarkov99 wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, this works, as does joining a gym where you do some sort of group activity, say a BJJ or other combat sport.

I disagree - at a gym, the experience is completely voluntary and the group is self-selecting. You may be bonding, but with people already like you. The key with military is being forced to do something you hate alongside complete strangers with little opportunity to socialize outside of the group, under threat of court martial for leaving. And the group of strangers may change at any time. You really have to learn t…

Everybody is like you in some way or other but in a BJJ gym, for example, you will be forced to engage with people of different genders, ages, political affiliations, religious beliefs, intensity, IQ, toughness, education. I do not discount the diversity of the military - if service is mandatory - but in civilian life a BJJ gym might be the most practical analogue.

Re: Overcoming Us vs. Them

#97

Post by [deleted] »

QAPereo wrote: post #5
frgtpsswrdlame wrote: post #2

I think this is going to be the next big challenge in social tech: Contact: The consequences of growing up amid diversity just discussed bring us to the effects of prolonged contact on Us/Theming. In the 1950s the psychologist Gordon Allport proposed “contact theory.” Inaccurate version: bring Us-es and Thems together (say, teenagers from two hostile nations in a summer camp), animosities disappear, similarities star…

In my experience, the people who are best at tech, are the least likely to grok human nature. Pixel Buds and Google Glass result.

[deleted]

Re: Overcoming Us vs. Them

#98

Post by pjc50 »

otakucode wrote: post #62
frgtpsswrdlame wrote: post #2

I think this is going to be the next big challenge in social tech: Contact: The consequences of growing up amid diversity just discussed bring us to the effects of prolonged contact on Us/Theming. In the 1950s the psychologist Gordon Allport proposed “contact theory.” Inaccurate version: bring Us-es and Thems together (say, teenagers from two hostile nations in a summer camp), animosities disappear, similarities star…

The first thing to always keep in mind is that intentionally attempting to engineer social behaviors has historically been the single most devastatingly destructive motivation. Far more destructive than war, famine, disease, or other means of human suffering and death. It gave us eugenics, concentration camps, political purges, the obesity epidemic, and all manner of other ills. It backfires consistently and almost a…

"intentionally attempting to engineer social behaviors" is the history of civilisation, surely?

Re: Overcoming Us vs. Them

#99

Post by neveroffensive »

yosito wrote: post #93
IronWolve wrote: post #29

Its too late, tech is growing more divided in hiring and its customer base. Now that google and other tech startups make blacklists of "them" that they want to block promotions and ban from working with people and groups, it seems us vs them is well embraced by the tech community. And left-leaning google/facebook/youtube/twitter using alt-right as a banner to ban conservatives, then using "Truth masters" like snopes/…

> Tech is sick with "us" vs "them" mentality and its spreading. Perhaps in your case, a little introspection will reveal an "us" vs "them" attitude which you already hold.

> Perhaps in your case, a little introspection will reveal an "us" vs "them" attitude which you already hold.

Sure, it's self referential to an extent, but it's literally impossible to criticize someones behavior without defining two categories. The point as I see it is, a large minority of libertarians/conservatives in tech are arguing for "live and let live", but the dominate left won't give up forcing their ideology on the industry.

"Live and let live" at it's core tries to eliminate the "us vs them" mentality, but there is still always a "them". In this case it's the people who don't "live and let live"...

Edit:

Self referential seems wrong... I think I meant it's a paradox? Even in acknowledging the category "us vs them believer" as existing, makes you an "us vs them" practitioner.

Re: Overcoming Us vs. Them

#100

Post by zardo »

legitster wrote: post #8

This is where countries with some sort of mandatory service may have us beat. And maybe it explains why American policy was so focused after the big national wars. I don't think there's a better way to force camaraderie. But then it becomes Us vs Them on the other side of the border.

It could be mandatory service in something more like the Peace Corp than the Marine Corp.
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