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Overcoming Us vs. Them

nautil.us

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Re: Overcoming Us vs. Them

#61

Post by joe_the_user »

In America today, you've got multitude of "us vs them" dynamics - anti-terrorist, liberal-vs-conservative, rich-vs-poor, black-vs-white, etc.

And at lot of this comes because, as the article says, "us versus them" is a powerful psychological dynamic. Given that that current American society is hyper-competitive, it seems likely this situation will continue. If pulling "us versus them" is akin to chemical warfare - a toxic affair for all concerned that only nets a marginal advantage, it will be used when actual chemical gets used - when one player is losing everywhere and no longer has to care. But that "pulling out all the stops" situation now happens ... always. When will politicians "go the low rout"? Always. When will media? etc.

Which goes back to hyper-competitive. When will it end? I don't know. How will end? Probably in tears but otherwise also hard to say.

Re: Overcoming Us vs. Them

#62

Post by otakucode »

frgtpsswrdlame wrote: post #2

I think this is going to be the next big challenge in social tech: Contact: The consequences of growing up amid diversity just discussed bring us to the effects of prolonged contact on Us/Theming. In the 1950s the psychologist Gordon Allport proposed “contact theory.” Inaccurate version: bring Us-es and Thems together (say, teenagers from two hostile nations in a summer camp), animosities disappear, similarities star…

The first thing to always keep in mind is that intentionally attempting to engineer social behaviors has historically been the single most devastatingly destructive motivation. Far more destructive than war, famine, disease, or other means of human suffering and death. It gave us eugenics, concentration camps, political purges, the obesity epidemic, and all manner of other ills. It backfires consistently and almost always. It is quite literally the most dangerous game that you can play. Unintended consequences are only something you can ignore if you can claim ignorance of their possibility head of time. We do not have that luxury. We have history.

That being said, the solution is a fairly simple one. Stress critical thinking. In all things. In personal life most especially, but also in other actions. Encourage people to recognize their inescapable biases and to resist them because those biases are irrational and provide no actual benefit.

There are unfortunately strong indications that this might not work, however, and that differing brain structures might actually be at play. Some people might have brains that are essentially hard-wired into an in-group/out-group way of processing the world which is inescapable. And seeking to change that would be seeking to change their fundamental character as people, clearly a morally wrong thing to do. But, we were never guaranteed that this whole 'society and civilization' thing was going to be simple or easy... so I guess we can't ask for our money back.

Re: Overcoming Us vs. Them

#63

Post by otakucode »

creaghpatr wrote: post #36
legitster wrote: post #8

This is where countries with some sort of mandatory service may have us beat. And maybe it explains why American policy was so focused after the big national wars. I don't think there's a better way to force camaraderie. But then it becomes Us vs Them on the other side of the border.

I am very in favor of mandatory service as a strategy to improve nations but I do want to point out that some of the most impressive ones (South Korea and Israel come to mind) are extremely homogenous.

I have never understood this idea. Why would it be beneficial to have your citizenry trained to kill?

Re: Overcoming Us vs. Them

#64

Post by tfha »

Feel this is very appropriate after the net neutrality thread. Top comment was a very blatent red-vs-blue characterisation, which of course is not the right mentality.

If we want to build a better world, we need to work together instead of target eachother.

Re: Overcoming Us vs. Them

#66

Post by Danihan »

joe_the_user wrote: post #61

In America today, you've got multitude of "us vs them" dynamics - anti-terrorist, liberal-vs-conservative, rich-vs-poor, black-vs-white, etc. And at lot of this comes because, as the article says, "us versus them" is a powerful psychological dynamic. Given that that current American society is hyper-competitive, it seems likely this situation will continue. If pulling "us versus them" is akin to chemical warfare - a…

Isn't this just the nature of reality though? A never-ending battle for resources and territory?

On time lapse, even tree roots are fighting for water, and leaves are fighting for sunlight.

I feel like this article might as well be called, "Overcoming Reality." Which the article basically admits, since these in-group / out-group distinctions are so deeply hardwired into our neurology.

Yes, cooperation works sometimes, but it's usually to beat out another cooperative group.

Re: Overcoming Us vs. Them

#67

Post by zarkov99 »

legitster wrote: post #8

This is where countries with some sort of mandatory service may have us beat. And maybe it explains why American policy was so focused after the big national wars. I don't think there's a better way to force camaraderie. But then it becomes Us vs Them on the other side of the border.

Yes, this works, as does joining a gym where you do some sort of group activity, say a BJJ or other combat sport.

Re: Overcoming Us vs. Them

#68

Post by wildmusings »

joe_the_user wrote: post #61

In America today, you've got multitude of "us vs them" dynamics - anti-terrorist, liberal-vs-conservative, rich-vs-poor, black-vs-white, etc. And at lot of this comes because, as the article says, "us versus them" is a powerful psychological dynamic. Given that that current American society is hyper-competitive, it seems likely this situation will continue. If pulling "us versus them" is akin to chemical warfare - a…

Unity against a common enemy has historically put an end to such internal strife. The Second World War wiped away domestic conflicts in the face of an existential threat, and gave a generation of men so much valor as to put them beyond reproach. It was unthinkable to target the men of the Greatest Generation with the kind of attacks and vicious reporting we are used to today, whether they deserved it or not.

Edit: I'm not saying we should go to war to solve our problems. I'm just observing something that is demonstrably true: groups unify in the face of external threats.

Re: Overcoming Us vs. Them

#69

Post by wefweoiu23j »

frgtpsswrdlame wrote: post #2

I think this is going to be the next big challenge in social tech: Contact: The consequences of growing up amid diversity just discussed bring us to the effects of prolonged contact on Us/Theming. In the 1950s the psychologist Gordon Allport proposed “contact theory.” Inaccurate version: bring Us-es and Thems together (say, teenagers from two hostile nations in a summer camp), animosities disappear, similarities star…

I think the answer is partially in your quote: emphasis the similarities.

Women of all colors, backgrounds, and economic statuses are sexually harassed and assaulted.

Men of all colors, backgrounds, and economic statuses are sexually harassed and assaulted.

These are facts of reality.

Our culture makes it such that women are more likely to be on the receiving end. But it doesn't make the fact that both sexes in various backgrounds are victims.

How do we help people with emotional or health issues? We don't unless they can pay for it.

Oh, you mean wealth inequality may play into "Us vs Them?" mentalities?

Another example:

Everyone race, gender, and creed has been some victim of society in the past. Irish slaves, African slaves... I knew my great-grandfather on my dad's side; 100% Chippewa Indian with papers to prove it, family documents that went back 3 generations prior to HIM being born, not me.

When suddenly everyone has a historical claim, but society only recognizes the claims of a minority because it can be traced back along arbitrary legal lines (which include by todays standards some pretty horrific violence and theft)... well you have a ripe field for "us vs them" when it comes to which claim.

But since almost anyone can make a claim, and since the special elite we do "prefer" can't show except through cherry-picked historical examples, any reason they should be lifted higher than others. Or that they're divine...

Change all conversations to focus on the similarities.

Re: Overcoming Us vs. Them

#70

Post by jotm »

frgtpsswrdlame wrote: post #15
legitster wrote: post #8

This is where countries with some sort of mandatory service may have us beat. And maybe it explains why American policy was so focused after the big national wars. I don't think there's a better way to force camaraderie. But then it becomes Us vs Them on the other side of the border.

>But then it becomes Us vs Them on the other side of the border. Yeah, maybe that's better on the other side than inside though. Like if President Trump started a huge "Beat China" campaign all about making sure America stays the world hegemon, that could bring a lot of neighbors together even if it widens the gulf between me and someone on the other side of the world. It's hard to say.

"Beat China" after being the one who empowered it... that will go well.
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