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English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests reveal

theguardian.com

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Re: English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests reveal

#121

Post by dmschulman »

jesperlang wrote: post #99

This reminds me of trophic cascades and e.g the unintuitive link that killing wolfs affects riverbeds: https://shadowproof.com/2014/02/20/trophic-cascade-how-wolve... It like we can't understand complex systems very well. Almost everything we do seem to have to have major unintended consequences. We see this over and over again, we have to abandon the "as cheap and fast as possible" thinking !

> It like we can't understand complex systems very well.

I'd reckon the geniuses in the labs do understand complex systems very well, only problem is that these chemists, engineers, etc who do bring concerns their concerns to the table tend to get shut down in favor of getting a product to market so that the company can continue to reap profits no matter what the environmental impact.

Re: English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests reveal

#122

Post by amyjess »

freeflight wrote: post #114
afarrell wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much of this is driven by Monsanto and how much is driven by individuals with worries of a Mathusian crisis, or who have concerns about nutrition deficits among the global poor, or who see the effects of climate change on Syrian agriculture and want a tool to counteract that? The reality is that we’ve always tested agricultural technologies in production. Sometimes with tragic results. But imagine you could contr…

Imho what makes people summon Monsanto isn't just the possible dangers to the biological ecosphere, it's also the fact that Monsanto has a history of suing farmers for patent infringements, due to the cross-pollination of the Monsanto plants. This sets a horrible precedent, I don't want to live in a world where corporate engineered, and patented, "super plants" contaminate the whole planet and people will end up bein…

If you're talking about Monsanto Canada Inc. v. Schmeiser, this happened because Schmeiser deliberately sewed Roundup Ready seed throughout his fields. This wasn't a case of the wind randomly depositing the seeds on his fields. He knew exactly what he had, and he planted it on purpose.

But after that case, a number of activists with a political agenda decided to mischaracterize the facts of the case in order to smear Monsanto.

Re: English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests reveal

#123

Post by ynniv »

projectileboy wrote: post #106
jesperlang wrote: post #99

This reminds me of trophic cascades and e.g the unintuitive link that killing wolfs affects riverbeds: https://shadowproof.com/2014/02/20/trophic-cascade-how-wolve... It like we can't understand complex systems very well. Almost everything we do seem to have to have major unintended consequences. We see this over and over again, we have to abandon the "as cheap and fast as possible" thinking !

FWIW, this is why some people have fears around GMO foods. It's not that they can't appreciate the benefits, it's because they fear that we're testing systems in production that we don't fully understand.

GMO produce fetches about the same market price, and is produced at about the same efficiency as modern non-GMO produce, so I also can't appreciate the "benefits".

[ https://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/30/business/gmo-promise-fall... ]

Re: English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests reveal

#124

Post by ynniv »

tstactplsignore wrote: post #112
Sone7 wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactafuckingmundo. Those PR scumbags in Monsanto have been extremely effective at equating being anti-GMO with being anti-science, and it'd be real nice to see some accountability for them.

Being against the implementation of specific crop products because you believe they weren't adequately tested, or because there is evidence that they are harmful in some way - that is not anti-science. Here's what is anti-science: being against using a range of methods available to modern biological science to engineer crops and demanding that we continue to use the less precise and inherently less safe methods that…

Engineering is not science, and anyone who has conducted scientific experiments would know that science isn't usually beneficial to the test subjects.

Re: English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests reveal

#125

Post by goatlover »

ccozan wrote: post #75
titzer wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. [ http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/05/where-have-all-insect... ]

Start travelling from West Europe towards East Europe. Until you reach Romania/Slovakia/Serbia/Ukraine, your car is clean. Over these borders, after 10km of night ( or even day) drive your car will be splatted with insects. No idea why, but the vegetation is incredibly varied/wild compared with West Europe.

I drove 400 miles in Florida at all times of day and night between Daytona Beach and Tampa, including a couple national parks along the coasts, and I only had about 2 bug splatters.

But the mosquitoes north of Cape Canaveral were on to me the moment I got out to take a short hike.

Did similar driving Eastern Kansas/Western Missouri below Kansas City, and no bug splatters. Doesn't matter time of day, traffic, countryside, just nothing.

Re: English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests reveal

#126

Post by exhilaration »

Karnickel wrote: post #120
amelius wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Having suffered from (finally clinically diagnosed and clinically treated with chelators DMPS and DMSA - with great results) low-dose long-term heavy metal poisoning I had to find out, both myself (studying as much as I could) and from the doctors Wow. I'm extremely curious about how you found out, what your symptoms were, and what resources you used to educate yourself. Do you think that people with your condition…

> I'm extremely curious about how you found out Exclusion and desperation. I got nothing from various doctors despite problems that I thought should be treatable. It had very, very slowly gotten worse over two to three decades. It is very, very subtle, and until a threshold was reached I described myself as "100% healthy" - completely ignoring a myriad of increasing little problems. Because each and every one of them…

Where did the mercury in your body come from? Do you have any guesses? I avoid eating tuna and other large aquatic predators to avoid mercury but I've never looked into it other sources.

Re: English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests reveal

#127

Post by chiefalchemist »

jesperlang wrote: post #99

This reminds me of trophic cascades and e.g the unintuitive link that killing wolfs affects riverbeds: https://shadowproof.com/2014/02/20/trophic-cascade-how-wolve... It like we can't understand complex systems very well. Almost everything we do seem to have to have major unintended consequences. We see this over and over again, we have to abandon the "as cheap and fast as possible" thinking !

Combine lack of humility with a short term memory and eventually we'll do oursevles in, like no other species has. Just give it time.

Re: English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests reveal

#128

Post by chiefalchemist »

projectileboy wrote: post #106
jesperlang wrote: post #99

This reminds me of trophic cascades and e.g the unintuitive link that killing wolfs affects riverbeds: https://shadowproof.com/2014/02/20/trophic-cascade-how-wolve... It like we can't understand complex systems very well. Almost everything we do seem to have to have major unintended consequences. We see this over and over again, we have to abandon the "as cheap and fast as possible" thinking !

FWIW, this is why some people have fears around GMO foods. It's not that they can't appreciate the benefits, it's because they fear that we're testing systems in production that we don't fully understand.

GMOs...It's that we've engineered something and have absolutely no idea of what a recall might look like. Ask Toyota is that's their understanding and experience with engineering. Obviously, Mother Nature is multiple orders of magnitude more complex than automobiles.

Re: English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests reveal

#129

Post by freeflight »

amyjess wrote: post #122
freeflight wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imho what makes people summon Monsanto isn't just the possible dangers to the biological ecosphere, it's also the fact that Monsanto has a history of suing farmers for patent infringements, due to the cross-pollination of the Monsanto plants. This sets a horrible precedent, I don't want to live in a world where corporate engineered, and patented, "super plants" contaminate the whole planet and people will end up bein…

If you're talking about Monsanto Canada Inc. v. Schmeiser , this happened because Schmeiser deliberately sewed Roundup Ready seed throughout his fields. This wasn't a case of the wind randomly depositing the seeds on his fields. He knew exactly what he had, and he planted it on purpose. But after that case, a number of activists with a political agenda decided to mischaracterize the facts of the case in order to smea…

I'm talking about this [0]:

"In its report, called Seed Giants vs US Farmers, the CFS said it had tracked numerous law suits that Monsanto had brought against farmers and found some 142 patent infringement suits against 410 farmers and 56 small businesses in more than 27 states. In total the firm has won more than $23m from its targets, the report said."

And that's just the situation in the US, I don't think Indian farmers fare that much better. Disney is already on its way of gobbling up all entertainment "intellectual property", we don't need a comparable situation with companies like Monsanto and essential plants like crops.

[0] https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2013/feb/12/monsanto...

Re: English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests reveal

#130

Post by FiatLuxDave »

goatlover wrote: post #125
ccozan wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Start travelling from West Europe towards East Europe. Until you reach Romania/Slovakia/Serbia/Ukraine, your car is clean. Over these borders, after 10km of night ( or even day) drive your car will be splatted with insects. No idea why, but the vegetation is incredibly varied/wild compared with West Europe.

I drove 400 miles in Florida at all times of day and night between Daytona Beach and Tampa, including a couple national parks along the coasts, and I only had about 2 bug splatters. But the mosquitoes north of Cape Canaveral were on to me the moment I got out to take a short hike. Did similar driving Eastern Kansas/Western Missouri below Kansas City, and no bug splatters. Doesn't matter time of day, traffic, countrys…

The water north of the Cape is called the Mosquito Lagoon for a reason...

If you want to see serious bug splatters, try Okeechobee during love-bug season. I drove through that once about eight years ago, and the marks are still visible on the car.

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