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The Limits to Growth (1972) [pdf]

donellameadows.org

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Re: The Limits to Growth (1972) [pdf]

#41
post #34
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The trouble with applying formal logic to natural language, is in the translation. You are interpreting "when" as indicating an implication, it could also be an 'if and only if'.

I know what you mean. It took me some effort to accept that, in natural language, an "exponential growth" was not really meant to be exponential. One has to live with it. :)

Well, sometimes it's meant that way. If you want your economy to keep growing at 2% per year, that really is exponential growth.

Re: The Limits to Growth (1972) [pdf]

#42
post #4
post #3

I remember the first time reading this book, or rather the 30 year update -- https://www.amazon.com/Limits-Growth-Donella-H-Meadows/dp/19... -- thinking, " this is the approach to take to understand how the economy, ecology, pollution, and so on interact." Everything else was just looking at elements. Technology is important, for example, but exists within a system. They looked at the system. They had to simplify and…

With all respect to the authors, the thinking at that point in time and the impact it made on the world and you: Much of their predictions haven't stood the test of time. -No exhaustible has been depleted yet and the price mechanism combined with technological progress seems pretty able to set incentives straight. Look at what the oil price bubble of the '00s did for electric cars and batteries in the now. -The world…

> - No exhaustible has been depleted yet

I don't think they predicted depletion for our current era in any of the models. The only model that even came close to that was the "Business As Usual" model, which predicts a peak of production around our present time. Looking at current production levels we do see a levelling off of oil production mostly due to declining output from major fields. [0] That said, certainly depletion is a very strong claim that no one has made.

> - the price mechanism combined with technological progress seems pretty able to set incentives straight. Look at what the oil price bubble of the '00s did for electric cars and batteries in the now.

First of all, switching to electric cars will amount to a shift in what the automobile fleet burns for fuel. Instead of gasoline and diesel, they burn whatever the power plant burns, and that's still predominantly petroleum-sourced. Additionally, current lithium supplies can not support massive expansion of the fleet. If Tesla builds all the gigafactories necessary to convert the fleet (let's assume 100 million EVs per year, which is approx current auto production; requiring 800,000 metric tons of lithium) and runs them for 17 years, they will deplete the known reserves of lithium (13.5 million tons of reserves[1] divided by 800,000 = 16.9 years). Speculative Estimates from[2]

Next, A lot of the material required for an EV still has to be sourced from petroleum resources. The metals need to be refined with high-heat processes. The wheels are rubber and sourced from natural gas or oil. Lots of plastics are involved. Mining and transporting the raw resources is still done with diesel machinery.

Finally, even if EV rollout is possible, we can't do it for all the people expected to be buying cars in the future. Even replacing the developed world's fleet is a major challenge, but doing it for the world looks insurmountable at this point. Given these real constraints, I'm willing to grant that price mechanism will not overcome these problems, except insofar that it can exclude most of the world from owning cars and other resource-consuming stuff.

> - The world has seen massively more population growth than they modelled, but not the accompanying food shortages they predicted.

The business-as-usual model did not properly account for how extensively we started turning petroleum into food. These days, there is a tremendous amount of embodied energy in most of the industrial food system.

> I'd argue the shortages of the '80s and '90s are over, although local situations obviously have tragic effects (Syria, Venezuela).

South Sudan, Yemen, Somalia, Nigeria, Syria, Venezuela. Also likely near-term famines in North Korea and Egypt. There are more active famines in 2017 than any recent time. Whether the number of affected people is similarly high is unknown at present.

> -Material goods production (plastics) is at an all time high.

I'm not sure why this is listed as a positive. Is that what you meant?

> -Many more humans alive at lower poverty levels than ever before and ever imagined by the Club of Rome

Some models they presented in the book had far more wealth, far lower poverty, and far higher populations than our present. In these models, pollution was also far higher than our present situation. The point was that resources inevitably get converted to pollution somehow. The models show that if we find a solution to our resource problems, we'll end up with more pollution.

[0]: http://peakoilbarrel.com/opec-october-production-data/ [1]: http://minerals.usgs.gov/minerals/pubs/commodity/lithium/mcs... [2]: https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/is-there-enough...

Re: The Limits to Growth (1972) [pdf]

#43

I'm still looking for a video or audio of that conference.

There are many more recent presentations by the principles, particularly Dennis Meadows, Donella Meadows (prior to her death), and Jorgen Randers. This particularly: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2oyU0RusiA

I was especially looking for the original conference. It's not the idea but the context I'm interested in. As you said, for the ideas there are a lot of data around.

Re: The Limits to Growth (1972) [pdf]

#44
post #18
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've mischaracterized their work. They didn't predict what you said they did. They showed a range of possible outcomes based on assumptions, among many. You seem to have picked one outcome as their only one and called it their prediction. They created a model based on a systems approach whose output depended on assumptions on physical properties of the planet and future human choices. Given the large uncertainties,…

Would it be fair to say that not all their possible outcomes were doom and gloom but that the media seized on that because it gets the most attention? That being said... we do know that infinite exponential growth of an economy in a finite bounded space is not possible. Eventually it must either plateau or crash. We hope it plateaus. There are some positive signs in this area including most notably the decline of bir…

> "Infinite" exponential growth at the scale of the universe might be possible

Only if the speed of light turns out not to be the hard boundary that it appears to be as of now.

If humanity is bound by any maximum speed (e.g. c, the speed of light), the maximum accessible volume of space is a sphere with radius c * t, where t is the time spent exploring the universe. The volume of this sphere is O(t^3), which is very much not exponential.

Re: The Limits to Growth (1972) [pdf]

#45
post #17
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> although local situations obviously have tragic effects (Syria, Venezuela) Considering people who came to Europe in the last time you can at least add Afghanistan, Pakistan, Palaestina, some African countries to this list. And I'd say (apart from often atrocious politics) it's b/c there are too many young men and no work. > Material goods production (plastics) is at an all time high with worldwide measurable effect…

Don't conflate being critical of the CoR of not being afraid for our environment. Mostly I am saying that the global market has shown to be more robust to changes in population and that supply and demand has been able to accomodate more changes than the CoR held for possible. That's positive point for our global system. It seems robust within the parameters of the last 150 years.

Coincidentally, the last 150 years corresponds quite closely with the Industrial Revolution and the age of fossil fuels. With the damage they are doing to the oceans (plastic, acidification) and the atmosphere (global warming, respiratory illnesses etc), it no longer seems quite so robust.

Re: The Limits to Growth (1972) [pdf]

#46
post #3

I remember the first time reading this book, or rather the 30 year update -- https://www.amazon.com/Limits-Growth-Donella-H-Meadows/dp/19... -- thinking, " this is the approach to take to understand how the economy, ecology, pollution, and so on interact." Everything else was just looking at elements. Technology is important, for example, but exists within a system. They looked at the system. They had to simplify and…

[deleted]

Re: The Limits to Growth (1972) [pdf]

#47
post #25
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it hard to have an open discussion if you're mainly dropping links without much added substance in the content (quotes like "business as usual", "keep bullshitting" don't help). The links are really long, actually seem to contain some relevant points, but also raise my BS-filter-flag (especially the links to 'prehistoric' economics papers).

As I posted below: Own words? Most of the blog posts are done by people much smarter than me. I could do a 1 or 2 hour PPT Presentation trying to get to the point. I think only a few people would be able to follow me. Not, because I am so tremendously smarter than them (I have a PhD), but because the topic is so tremendously complex and interlinked. This being said. It does not hurt to read this blog posts and think…

Ok, read the Galactic energy scale-post. Does an analysis like that scare you? Not me. Holding energy growth constant is a fun exercise, but not realistic.

My take-aways: all energies except nuclear are finite in about 200 years barring unrealistic technical advances (like 100% efficiency). Don't forget the catch-up consumption for the other 6.7B world citizens. That would shorten the process. Supply and demand for energy could easily create incentives to better allocate our 7000TW budget. In the long run (and we are talking really long run) S&D should allocate research (nuclear fusion for one, but consumption lowering as well) incentive compatible with our energy budget. The end of the demographic divide suggests falling population rates in 100 yrs. One of the largest drivers of that growth percentage is population growth. But that seems ending. I agree with the CoR there. Another big energy saver.

Energy usage is not my worry. Man induced climate change without the political will the make pollution endogenous to markets, that is. Market forces cannot work on CO2 without world wide agreement. I'm a market optimist and a political pessimist.

Re: The Limits to Growth (1972) [pdf]

#48
post #4
post #3

I remember the first time reading this book, or rather the 30 year update -- https://www.amazon.com/Limits-Growth-Donella-H-Meadows/dp/19... -- thinking, " this is the approach to take to understand how the economy, ecology, pollution, and so on interact." Everything else was just looking at elements. Technology is important, for example, but exists within a system. They looked at the system. They had to simplify and…

With all respect to the authors, the thinking at that point in time and the impact it made on the world and you: Much of their predictions haven't stood the test of time. -No exhaustible has been depleted yet and the price mechanism combined with technological progress seems pretty able to set incentives straight. Look at what the oil price bubble of the '00s did for electric cars and batteries in the now. -The world…

>although local situations obviously have tragic effects (Syria, Venezuela).

These and many other crises in the world today can arguably be traced to the very kinds of resource challenges the Club of Rome discussed.

The 'Arab Spring' in particular has it's roots in (among other things) a decade of poor harvests caused by drought, aquifer depletion and topsoil erosion, which made people move from rural areas to the cities in huge numbers. Once there, persistent unemployment was the fuel, political repression was the accelerant and the spark came from a spike in global food prices caused by bad harvests combined with speculative grain hoarding[1].

We should be especially wary of triumphantly declaring that everything's allright in the world from the position of one of the world's richest societies. When negative changes come they hit the most vulnerable first, whilst those with the most power and wealth use it (perhaps unknowingly) to ensure that their bubble remains as optimistic as ever. We see this demonstrated as the very poorest are hit first (eg. young, black males in the USA), then the working class, then when it hits the middle classes the 'crisis' becomes part of media discourse; throughout the elite remain largely oblivious (eg. Silicon Valley salaries).

These are simple narratives and we should perhaps be as sceptical of them as the idea that "Facebook caused the Arab Spring", but they illustrate how we should consider how resource constraints interface with all the other systems of human civilisation.

[1]https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/climate-change-an...

Re: The Limits to Growth (1972) [pdf]

#49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are many more recent presentations by the principles, particularly Dennis Meadows, Donella Meadows (prior to her death), and Jorgen Randers. This particularly: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2oyU0RusiA

I was especially looking for the original conference. It's not the idea but the context I'm interested in. As you said, for the ideas there are a lot of data around.

If you want context, I'd recommend reading books.

There's one in particular that has an excellent bibliography, and which I've cribbed from extensively: William Ophuls, Ecology and the Politics of Scarcity, published in 1977. I'm linking the 1992 update (which might be found online via LibGen or Bo-ok.org), which doesn't depart much from the original, does extend some observations, and should include the references of the former. Both books are based on Ophuls PhD thesis (political science, Yale), published ~1972.

In particular, Ophuls looks at much of the literature of the previous 25 years or so, both on the limits side and the cornucopians.

https://www.worldcat.org/title/ecology-and-the-politics-of-s...

You might in particular be interested in The Next Hundred Years, a view from 1950:

https://www.worldcat.org/title/next-hundred-years/oclc/12006...

Or Charles Galton Darwin's The Next Million Years. Yes, grandson of the other C.D., and with a ridiculously qualified biography of his own.

https://www.worldcat.org/title/next-million-years/oclc/14145...

Richard Meier's Science and Economic Development is also fairly mainstream:

https://www.worldcat.org/title/science-and-economic-developm...

Re: The Limits to Growth (1972) [pdf]

#50
post #3

I remember the first time reading this book, or rather the 30 year update -- https://www.amazon.com/Limits-Growth-Donella-H-Meadows/dp/19... -- thinking, " this is the approach to take to understand how the economy, ecology, pollution, and so on interact." Everything else was just looking at elements. Technology is important, for example, but exists within a system. They looked at the system. They had to simplify and…

I found it fascinating, too... it send me on a hunt to try and better understand their World3 model. I bought Wolfram SystemModeler since one of their extensions has the model, and I also found some online resources that have modeled it through javascript too. One thing that was a little disheartening is that I found that one of the inputs to the model appeared to be highly determinant, and the initial values chosen seemed controversial. If I changed the initial value to something else that still seemed within a reasonable range, the model projections didn't seem so bad.

I wish I could remember details, I've been searching my hard drive for my notes.

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