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Ask HN: What to do if you hate working for someone else and arent an entrepreneur?

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Re: Ask HN: What to do if you hate working for someone else and arent an entrepreneur?

#171

Post by jressey »

amiuba wrote: post #109
jressey wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I agree with this, it's really only easy to recognize this after you've figured it out. I also want to emphasize I'm in a position now with equity do not adhere to the philosophy below. Focus on enjoying the people you work with and spend less energy thinking about your work. Stressing over work is a fool's game unless you have skin in it. I had a pretty low point in my career and I simply changed my focus to c…

> changed my focus to collecting as much money from the wealthy bosses as I could while providing as little value as I could. I thought about this and tried it this past year. It didn't go well and my performance review was abysmal. Some of my colleagues hate my guts because they feel like they're doing all the work and I'm not. For example, I never do overtime especially when it's to meet unrealistic arbitrary deadl…

I think there's an art to it. First off, if you work in that type of environment, yea you're gonna get shit from your colleagues. If that bothers you, you might need to be working somewhere else to pull it off. I would probably try to convince them to change to your philosophy.

To be honest, the real secret is to be everybody's friend. Focus on knowing them personally and spend lots of time bullshitting with them. You also can't flaunt what you're doing. Just make your estimates really long up front, clearly state all of the potential blockers and how they will affect your deadlines. Ask lots of questions in meetings. When confronted, product people, leaders, whoever is in charge usually do not know what they want. Put it on them to actually articulate their needs. You'll have them going back to the drawing board over and over.

Re: Ask HN: What to do if you hate working for someone else and arent an entrepreneur?

#172

Post by gremlinsinc »

arximboldi wrote: post #32

I felt similarly often, even though I was working for a great company with great products and with a very humane way of working. At some point I just could not stand the worker-owner fundamental power imbalance. There is a lot of pretending in our industry that this conflict does not exist, which often ends up in quite schizophrenic logic. I had to go. And Since I don't want to inflict such pain in other people, beco…

You sound a lot like me...I'm a laravel/vue dev if you want to join forces let me know. Email : patrickwcurl@gmail.com

I think if we could get 2-3 devs, a designer, and a marketing person to join the team we could start filling our pipeline and build a pretty cool worker-coop.

My vision would reward first in more, but give everyone coming in - even non-technical people a stake in the company with stock and what not. I think the lowest income in a company should be at least $70k -- that's the current number it takes for someone to feel 'happy'... about their position in life and presumably live comfortable.

I admire companies like Winco where some cashiers who started back in 1990's are worth millions because of ESO plans.

My dream would be helping clients with full biz-dev from idea to validation to mockups to development to SEO/Marketing and growing the user base. It would be cool if we worked in some equity as well, say 5% equity for a lower cost of development, but if we helped build a unicorn all employees would split the windfall.

Re: Ask HN: What to do if you hate working for someone else and arent an entrepreneur?

#173

Post by mattbrewsbytes »

Oh yeah this sounds very familiar. Does it get to the point where you start resenting people in upper management because you think they literally do nothing and make more? I started having those thoughts when working at a Fortune 500 - I'd see VP's at the office for insane hours and not sure really what they did but they sure got their 5 figure bonuses, even when things didn't go well it seemed.

I was an engineering manager and had to deal with upper management, bogus policies like only 10% of people can get a good raise, meetings about meetings, etc. Now I've gone back to software development without managing people and it is a relief. Think of all the things people in those other roles have to worry about: budgets, raises (or lack of), employee reviews, project planning, sales, hiring, firing, etc. You said that going through that grind of entrepreneurship isn't something that appeals to you.

Take pride in the work you do, software engineering can be fun if you enjoy it. Sure it helps some rich person at the top, its the same everywhere though: pilots, carpenters, plumbers, accountants, etc. Be relieved you don't have to worry about all that other business stuff. If you find a place with good work/life balance then you can pursue things you are interested on your own time.

Re: Ask HN: What to do if you hate working for someone else and arent an entrepreneur?

#174

Post by fallingfrog »

ryanwaggoner wrote: post #85
makotech222 wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Democratization of work doesn't mean zero hierarchy. It means the workers get to choose how their labor value is used. It is perfectly acceptable for a majority of a company to decide to elect a CEO and form a capitalist-style company, but it is important that it is their choice to do so! And of course, they would still retain their right to revoke such a hierarchy.

So what's stopping this from happening now? The existence of other firms where employees own 0% shouldn't negatively impact worker-owned cooperatives, right? If anything, coops should be at an advantage because no one is sucking out all their value! So why don't we see more of that?

It's hard to raise money for such a business, because venture capitalists typically aren't willing to loan a new business money- they want ownership equity for their money. And at that point it's no longer employee owned. In fact small business loans specifically exclude any new business from consideration- established businesses with documented profits only, thank you very much. So usually employee owned businesses start out privately owned and then the employees buy out the original owners at market prices. I think there is hope though- there are financing options for cooperatives starting to appear here and there, still on a very small scale though.

Re: Ask HN: What to do if you hate working for someone else and arent an entrepreneur?

#175

Post by vanderreeah »

RickS wrote: post #165

I'm late to this thread, but I hope you read this: If you go freelance, watch the fuck out. This post reads like you're depressed with the direction of your life, and are bucketing the causes into your workplace because it's intellectually easy to do. I don't mean that to be disparaging - I say it with authority because I do it too, and your post reads exactly like the monologue that runs through my head every day. I…

I know your comment is well-meaning, and the warning about the necessity of networking is sound, but I think you're projecting a little. It seems presumptuous to read irrationality (i.e. something unexamined in his psyche, which is what I take you to mean when you talk about seeing a professional) into what seems to me to be a 100% sane assessment of his situation. Nothing could be a more accurate picture of most of our working lives than the OP's post: spending 48 weeks a year in the offices of a company getting richer from our energy expenditure, an expenditure which in any just society would benefit us, or at least benefit us and others in equitable proportions. He shouldn't feel personal pride in that, he shouldn't feel happy that his boss is profiting from overtime, he should feel miserable at this situation. It's a miserable situation to be in, and most of us are in it.

Re: Ask HN: What to do if you hate working for someone else and arent an entrepreneur?

#176

Post by amiuba »

vanderreeah wrote: post #175
RickS wrote: post #165

I'm late to this thread, but I hope you read this: If you go freelance, watch the fuck out. This post reads like you're depressed with the direction of your life, and are bucketing the causes into your workplace because it's intellectually easy to do. I don't mean that to be disparaging - I say it with authority because I do it too, and your post reads exactly like the monologue that runs through my head every day. I…

I know your comment is well-meaning, and the warning about the necessity of networking is sound, but I think you're projecting a little. It seems presumptuous to read irrationality (i.e. something unexamined in his psyche, which is what I take you to mean when you talk about seeing a professional) into what seems to me to be a 100% sane assessment of his situation. Nothing could be a more accurate picture of most of…

> a 100% sane assessment of his situation. Nothing could be a more accurate picture of most of our working lives than the OP's post

To be fair, it is extremely hard to tell, even for me (OP). Sometimes I feel like I'm nuts because everyone else seems to get by and just deal with it. Am I so special or fragile that I can't just suck it up and do like everyone else?

No matter what angle I look at it though, I don't see how this could not make anyone at least a little bit sick. Spending 40 years (or 10 years if you're aiming for FI) using your life and health away to make some stranger even richer while the best you can hope for is keeping your job. It's absurd, and I can't understand how a lifetime of taking one for the team doesn't make people revolt.

But maybe we're the crazy ones because we're the minority, and can't adapt. I honestly don't know and struggle with this question.

Re: Ask HN: What to do if you hate working for someone else and arent an entrepreneur?

#177

Post by amiuba »

bigmanwalter wrote: post #145
amiuba wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FI/RE is a tremendous idea, and that's the thing that motivates me. I've been working on it for a few years now, but it's still far away. But it feels like it's not enough, I don't know that I can keep eating sh*t for another 7 years. We're saving about 55% of our net income after rent, we're pretty frugal to begin with in a high col area (not in the US). It's definitely part of the solution and I can't wait to quit…

I briefly considered FI/RE but like you said, couldn't handle eating shit for so long. Life is for living on your own terms.

Aiming for FI only means that you'll eat the same shit but for much less time (i.e. 10 years vs 40+ years)

Re: Ask HN: What to do if you hate working for someone else and arent an entrepreneur?

#178

Post by amiuba »

tyingq wrote: post #131

You could try being a staff augmentation contractor, working mostly 6 to 12 month gigs. Search any job board looking for keywords like contract or 1099. You'll end up working at big companies, but are generally exempted from a lot of the bullshit. Things like company kool-aid meetings, non technical training, performance reviews, etc. It's sort of in between running your own company and being an employee. The risk pr…

I've done staff augs before, I hope to never do staff augs again. You are not respected, and have to absorb all the cost of poor decisions made before your time.

Re: Ask HN: What to do if you hate working for someone else and arent an entrepreneur?

#179

Post by amiuba »

0x4f3759df wrote: post #116

Definitely understand where you are coming from. Not sure about your specifics, but you could try the Mr. Money Mustache route; spend less money, then you wouldn't need to work as much

Definitely doing this already, but there is still several years to go.

Re: Ask HN: What to do if you hate working for someone else and arent an entrepreneur?

#180

Post by vanderreeah »

amiuba wrote: post #176
vanderreeah wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know your comment is well-meaning, and the warning about the necessity of networking is sound, but I think you're projecting a little. It seems presumptuous to read irrationality (i.e. something unexamined in his psyche, which is what I take you to mean when you talk about seeing a professional) into what seems to me to be a 100% sane assessment of his situation. Nothing could be a more accurate picture of most of…

> a 100% sane assessment of his situation. Nothing could be a more accurate picture of most of our working lives than the OP's post To be fair, it is extremely hard to tell, even for me (OP). Sometimes I feel like I'm nuts because everyone else seems to get by and just deal with it. Am I so special or fragile that I can't just suck it up and do like everyone else? No matter what angle I look at it though, I don't see…

I can't comment on the sanity of adaptation - it may well be the most expedient reaction. But your original description of the relative economic positions of worker and employer, and of who accrues the most benefit from the energy expenditure of the worker (hint: it's not the worker), is just simple 20/20 clarity. Not even the most conservative economist could disagree with it. To adapt to this seems an act akin to Stockholm syndrome, but to struggle with it, though perhaps more clear-minded, is also unlikely to bring happiness. But once you've seen what you've seen, you can't unsee it.
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